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#410644 - 11/02/08 02:57 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: JKogas]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi John,

I respect your opinion but it makes no difference in how I practice my art in my twilight. After 35+ years I have no illusions about what I train for, and the friends I train with are hardly striking non-compliant attacks, but feel free to belive what you wish.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#410645 - 11/02/08 06:40 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Victor Smith]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Victor -

It isn't my business how you or anyone else chooses to train. It comes down to personal preference. But as you decided to chime in with your opinion on kata, I decided to do the same with my opinion about kata.

I respect you and your time involved in the arts. My near 30 years involved (many times inconsistent earlier in my life) may not have been spent in the same "style", but I've seen enough over that time to know a thing or two about truth in combat.

One thing I DO know is that a person could spend a HUNDRED years in the arts and it would not change the fact that kata has no relationship to a living, moving and resisting human being. That's just the way I see it.

We're all free to train however we choose. It isn't that I'm all "hardcore" every time I step in to train. My dedication to aliveness isn't about brutality. That's a common misconception.

At any rate, enjoy your training. That's what it is ultimately all about.

-John

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#410646 - 11/02/08 06:58 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: JKogas]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi John,

As you've stated you have an opinion, I have an opinion and that's really as far as it goes convincing anyone.

Truth in combat, that's easy we shouldn't be fighting, and if we do we should always be taking our our opponent from behind. Likewise never fight with your empty hands and always cheat.

I almost always have something in my hands, keys or whatever, and my toolchest comes from my various kata, but I'm not suggesting how I use them.

As far as strikes, empty hand I often choose to use Sanchin kata techniques against boxing, but then again...
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#410647 - 11/03/08 06:24 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: Victor Smith]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Hi John,

As you've stated you have an opinion, I have an opinion and that's really as far as it goes convincing anyone.





Same here Victor. It may sound as if I'm trying to convince you or others, but that's why I always end my posts with the thought that one should always do what one finds most enjoyable.

Speaking only for me, I simply want the training process to be as scientific as possible. That means, researching the experience OF fighting. For me that means going into the gym and training for the purposes of sparring using varying degrees of energy. The sparring *is* the fight, or as close as it will come. Certainly we're not engaging in "street fighting" so I don't want people having the wrong idea. Nor is it about brutality. However, I believe that human beings can engage in hand to hand in ways very similar to a street fight without having to put each other into a hospital.

From this experience, one can derive the "truth in combat". And for my purposes, this has nothing to do with ethics or morality. What this implies is the truth as opposed to "fantasy in combat". In short, it's a foray into the "what is" as opposed to the "what should be", if you catch my meaning.


Quote:


Truth in combat, that's easy we shouldn't be fighting, and if we do we should always be taking our our opponent from behind. Likewise never fight with your empty hands and always cheat.





Of course we shouldn't be fighting -- on the street. In the gyms, dojos and schools however, that's another story entirely. I believe we should be fighting and to borrow a phrase from Burton Richardson; "If you want to learn how to fight, you must practice fighting against someone who is fighting back!"

I could not agree with that sentiment more. It's just common sense. If we're not "fighting" in training, if we're not studying combat in some truthful way, we might as well be practicing ballet because that will be just as effective as anything else we do.


Quote:


I almost always have something in my hands, keys or whatever, and my toolchest comes from my various kata, but I'm not suggesting how I use them.





Of course Victor. I just avoid places where I run the risk of encountering violence. Beyond that, its a crapshoot and all. If I still manage to run into it, that means I've been hit by a predator and that he'll probably be armed and, that there is a good chance he'll have others with him. But I'm not talking about self-preservation, which in my opinion is MUCH easier than martial arts. I'm talking about physical skill developed through a fun and functional process. Something athletic and inherently worthwhile to the human being and his/her psyche.

For self-defense, I just don't engage. If I had to, I'd probably use a knife or a gun or run like hell. I have no ego issues to deal with that would force me into going "hands on" with someone.


Quote:


As far as strikes, empty hand I often choose to use Sanchin kata techniques against boxing, but then again...





Very good Victor. How many rounds do you usually go and how much contact is there typically present? Do you wear gloves or is it bare knuckle? Just curious.

Thanks

-John

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#410648 - 11/03/08 07:26 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: JKogas]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
You make good arguments that in order to be able to fight, you must practise fight, but I do not agree entirely with your position Jkogas.

There is much more to combat than just fight. The reason why there is a fight is in my opinion only because :
- either you are sure you are going to win
- you are convinced that by not fighting you can lose more than by fighting, whatever the outcome.
In this plays a lot of psychologie and actual fysical contact in preparation of such an event is an important part but not all of it. In everything related to combat fear plays a very big role. Cohesion in group can give you a sense of security but still fear will creap in at the moment of thruth. In that regard stamina is in my opinion more important than technical ability. I've seen fights end because in the end the opponent could not get defeated. The ultimate warrior is the one who can overcome the fear of death. Not many get to that point. I have never been to that point. I am already afraid to get hurt. But can stamina (mental and physical) only be achieved by partner training ? I still think kata plays a role in that. But you have to train kata with that mentality. But this is not the ultimate answer, there are many methods and many ideas on how to achieve a goal.

Who has the best strike ? It depends on the goal of the strike. I think that boxing has a big advantage in combining offensive and defensive moves on short range. I think karate-techniques have a big advantage on their goal to achieve maximum energy-release on the chosen point of impact. Speed and timing will decide what is best. But I learned that making combinations in fighting is very imported from my Muay Thai training. I only did it for a year but it signifacntly changed my idea of how to fight. But I never stopped karate-training and with that kata training. I believe that the mental aspect in training kata, overcoming tireness and pain to repeat over and over the kata in order to execute with the mental focus to able to inflict damage, creates stamina. Testing this mental part can be done in fighting, and the more you allow to go to full-contact, the more stress on your mental readiness up to the point of fear.

Like you already said, in the end, the goal of training in is to have fun, responsibility and grow into decent human beings. Although our methods are not the same, I am happy that the goal is the same.


Edited by CVV (11/03/08 07:32 AM)

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#410649 - 11/03/08 07:49 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: CVV]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

You make good arguments that in order to be able to fight, you must practise fight, but I do not agree entirely with your position Jkogas.





That's fine. Everyone is welcome to their own opinions. And call me John.


Quote:


There is much more to combat than just fight. The reason why there is a fight is in my opinion only because :
- either you are sure you are going to win
- you are convinced that by not fighting you can lose more than by fighting, whatever the outcome.





But I don't think I've said anything to the contrary. If you mean that, there is much more to combat than just the physical aspects of fighting, I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. But we were mainly just talking about punching on this thread, not the entire panoply of human conflict. And I mentioned a few things about the training process. Otherwise I've not really gotten into the minutiae....yet.


Quote:


In this plays a lot of psychologie and actual fysical contact in preparation of such an event is an important part but not all of it. In everything related to combat fear plays a very big role. Cohesion in group can give you a sense of security but still fear will creap in at the moment of thruth. In that regard stamina is in my opinion more important than technical ability. I've seen fights end because in the end the opponent could not get defeated. The ultimate warrior is the one who can overcome the fear of death. Not many get to that point. I have never been to that point. I am already afraid to get hurt.





There's no doubt that there are a lot of dynamics involved in fighting, beyond the physical. You mention fear and stamina, both of which are very real. But these have simple solutions. You deal with fear by doing the thing you fear. You obtain stamina by doing the thing you need stamina for. Both of which are FIGHTING (sparring in all ranges, with resistance). Training and sparring with athleticism and aliveness will enable people get a much greater handle of both of those aspects you mentioned. Again, a simple solution is all that is needed. The rest comes down to having a healthy dose of common sense and an instinct for self-preservation.



Quote:


But can stamina (mental and physical) only be achieved by partner training?





I would say no. There are other ways of achieving mental and physical stamina. But when we are talking about a process that involves other people (opponents), why choose a method that wouldn't take that into consideration? Again it's just common sense. When I am fighting, I'm going to be facing one (at least) individual. I need specificity in training. In other words, the vast majority of my conditioning is going to come from the activity itself (in this case, fighting). In other words; if I want conditioning to play basketball, I need to play basketball. If I want conditioning for fighting, I need to fight, etc. Sure you can (and perhaps should) supplement your training with other conditioning drills. However I would choose wind sprints and weight training over kata again and again. But that's just me.

But if solo training is all you have, do wind sprints! Doing wind sprints will still be better for your stamina than kata. Wind sprints, strength training will develop the physical attributes better than performing kata.

That said, I'm not sitting here saying, "don't do kata!". I'm just giving my point of view. There should be nothing wrong with the critical voice. No one should feel threatened because I took shots at their sacred cows. I am just not a traditional martial artist.


Quote:


I still think kata plays a role in that...





And that's fine...there's nothing wrong with that. You do whatever provides the most satisfaction. If that happens to be kata, great. I just know that a lot of people in this day and age have limited time for training. If someone came to me and asked my opinion about the best use of their limited time, I'd tell them that supervised/coached, progressive sparring (with direction, goals and a purpose to each session) with a variety of individuals would be the best way to develop functional skill. Then if they were still interested, I'd mention the need for conditioning and a generally healthy lifestyle/positive outlook, etc.

If after all of that, a person still has extra time (and wanted to), they could do kata to their heart's content. The fact is, there is no need for kata. It's something you could choose to do just because you wanted to. Otherwise, you could drop it and never do it again, and not miss it one bit, if you were training functionally and scientifically (with progressive resistance and variable intensity).



Quote:


Who has the best strike? It depends on the goal of the strike.





Who has the best strike has less to do with the goal of the strike or the intended target, and more to do with the individual throwing it, along with the essential attributes that individual has developed (timing, distancing, accuracy, the ability to throw under the pressure of your opponent throwing back at you, etc). That would be my answer.



Quote:


I think that boxing has a big advantage in combining offensive and defensive moves on short range.





I think that people tend to think of boxing as just a ring sport and overlook the fact that at the end of the day, we're just talking about hitting. Long range/short range, doesn't matter. I use both aspects when I train my striking. Included in that are elbows, knees, low Thai style round kicks, savate kicking, etc. But the cornerstone to it all are the hands and the structure taken from a western boxing approach (hands up, orthodox lead, strong side to the rear).


Quote:


I think karate-techniques have a big advantage on their goal to achieve maximum energy-release on the chosen point of impact.





That's great. All that matters is what you can DO.



Quote:


I believe that the mental aspect in training kata, overcoming tireness and pain to repeat over and over the kata in order to execute with the mental focus to able to inflict damage, creates stamina.





It creates stamina for, doing kata. Remember what I said about specificity earlier in this post? That's what I meant.


Quote:


Like you already said, in the end, the goal of training in is to have fun, responsibility and grow into decent human beings. Although our methods are not the same, I am happy that the goal is the same.





Absolutely! I couldn't agree with you more! It doesn't matter what methods we use or the process involved. This internet forum is just a place to air our points of view. We'll never agree on everything and that doens't really matter. All that matters is the enjoyment that we derive from the processes.

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#410650 - 11/03/08 09:39 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: JKogas]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

The sparring *is* the fight, or as close as it will come.




I'm going to preface my comments with this: I believe sparring is a necessary part of fight training.

However sparring is sparring - it is not a fight. It might well be "as close as you get". But it is still MILES off real combat.

Here is the big point though:

You seem to think that because someone does kata he or she doesn't spar (with contact). Who gave you this idea? Your own reference to "controlled contact" (ie. where you hit "heavy" but not "hard" etc.) is old hat in my and many, many other karate schools. Controlled (as opposed to "light" contact or "pulled" punches) comes with the territory in karate - it is inherent in the concept of "kime".

Quote:

"If you want to learn how to fight, you must practice fighting against someone who is fighting back!"

I could not agree with that sentiment more.




Ditto for me. Why assume otherwise because I do kata? Yes, there are many schools out there that don't practise realistically. However arts like karate are practised by a much larger cross-section of society than, say, MMA and boxing. Many choose to do karate as a hobby without contact. Why pick them for your reference point? Ma and Pa plus kids who do taekwondo once per week are NEVER going into an MMA gym anyway. Most people (including tma) will agree that the Ma and Pa plus kids stuff is not "optimum fight training" by any stretch. Nor is the related (albeit slightly more serious) offshoot "tag competition".

Quote:

But one of my primary points was (and has been) that often, these things ARE practiced, and still not done! Another point that I attempt to make here is that some martial arts techniques just aren't workable (in my opinion), no matter HOW much time you put into them. In other cases, some "techniques" stray a good distance from sound fundamentals and actually make people vulnerable. Again, I think the less is more school of thought has better returns on time invested. There are high percentage techniques, and lower percentage techniques, across the martial arts landscape as I'm sure you're well aware.




Well there is some discrepancy in tma about how things should be done. But one thing that is consistent amongst the practical tma schools is that the basics training (blocks etc.) has a very important purpose in grooving essential angles of movement and wiring certain pathways in the brain. You cannot appreciate it by watching - particularly when you reference Ma and Pa plus kids or tag style competitions. This is a dilution of tma, not tma.

I actually use the essence of our basics movements in sparring (though not the exact form). I have come to realise that without those basics I couldn't use the more fluid derivatives (eg. deflections) in sparring (and I have done so successfully for many years, thank you very much).

In a diluted form basics stray from the essential movement and become worthless. This leads many to adopt what I have called "faux boxing" in the resultant technical vacuum. But there are many schools that understand and implement their basics into sparring.

Quote:

For MY money, I'm not interested in the esoteric and endless days of training with so little resistance that I barely break a sweat.




Whoa! Who are you referencing here? This is an insult to all those tma who have literally poured blood, sweat and tears into each session for decades. I am one of them.

Quote:

I don't care about what "looks good on paper" and I don't have 15 years to master a move that only works on people with a heart rate slightly above that of a corpse.




You clearly haven't trained with good, hard karateka in your life. I suggest you go down to your nearest IOGKF or Jundokan dojo (I can't speak for others - but I can give you my nearest equivalent). Go to Nakamura's dojo or, better yet, go to Morio Higaonna's dojo in Okinawa. Try your luck with some of the black belts. You won't find them "corpses". I dare say that regardless of your own ability you'll have no choice but to respect them as effective contact fighters - in standup and grappling. You'll come out bruised and battered - just as they do AFTER EACH SESSION. Do it or else it's all just a "paper" argument, isn't it?

Quote:

Core fundamentals developed through aliveness is going to be a hundred times better than splitting a persons time in half having them perform movements that have zero relationship to a living, moving human being fighting them back.




Well you can't contact with someone ALL the time John.

I do kata mostly when I'm on my own. As I said above, go to Nakamura's dojo (he's somewhere in your country!) and you'll be glad if they take a break for kata, let me tell you!

As I've said above, kata and basics in karate is about conditioning and inclucating essential angles of movement and fundamental kinaesthetics. It is NOT necessary for fighting per se. It is however useful for karate technical development; of this I'm sure (based on my own almost 30 years of continuous training).

Quote:

Its just that simple. Sure, that's my opinion. But I also think its common sense. There have been more than a few occasions where I discovered that common sense is outside the realm of art.




You're very confident about your discoveries. Yet you don't have any willingness to even consider that tma have something to offer. You dismiss them out of hand. On the other hand, I don't dismiss modern combat sports. I'm no slouch at boxing, for example.

Quote:

In all seriousness, there is just no reason for kata outside of, control of large numbers of people in a class, the intentional wasting of time, or in the testing of an individuals patience/character, etc. I have to disagree that kata is where skill is built.




Nothing you have said indicates any awareness of the skills that karate actually employs. I had similar thoughts about certain other arts (eg. tkd) when I was younger - until I actually fought some of their number. Then I had to acknowledge that although I still didn't like their approach they put it to good use (eg. high kicks can be hard to deal with) and they were still effective fighters (even if they weren't about to win an MMA championship - but then again, neither are you or I).

Quote:

But we've been over this before on the forum here. Kata (given that time is of the essence) would be the very last thing that I could ever, in good faith and with a clean conscience, advise anyone to do with their training time.




We've heard it before a thousand times John. And yet there are many of us who are still quite effective with kata. Go and train with the karateka I mentioned and see how you fare. I'm certain you'll never think that kata is for you - but I guarantee you won't be quite so dismissive and, dare I say it, insulting to some people who I know to be very practical fighters indeed.

Quote:

And with all due respect, the very fact that kata is not necessary in ANY way, for the creation of functional ability, clearly demonstrates the waste of time that it is, in my opinion.




I think you mean "with NO respect". Nothing in your posts indicates any real respect for the fighting ability of traditional martial artists, nor respect for their skill level overall, nor respect for their technical knowledge, nor respect for their sincere and long-standing effort.

By contrast, last I saw, NO serious traditional martial arists are out there lampooning the kinds of things you do and dismissing your methods as "useless", "fit for fighting corpses" etc.

(And your argument in the above quote is circular btw.)

Quote:

Very good Victor. How many rounds do you usually go and how much contact is there typically present? Do you wear gloves or is it bare knuckle? Just curious.




Seems to me, you're hoping to catch Victor out with an answer that "proves your point".

Well I don't know about Victor, but nowadays I hardly engage in contact at all (shock horror!).

Why not? My body just can't take it (from a degenerative immune disorder). However I've engaged in hard contact for almost 3 decades. I dare say you'll find the latter is true for Victor; he's had his share of hard knocks, I'm sure (no one who trained in the 70s went without brutally hard training - mostly bareknuckle).

Nowadays I choose to do kata and other exercises because I can still do them and I enjoy them. Furthermore, they are still improving my technique. I notice this when I do spar (even though I might regret the sparring the next day!).

A difference of opinion is fine. So is a preference in technique. The world would be boring if we all did the same thing.

But your scathing tone is sometimes a bit much.
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#410651 - 11/03/08 11:21 PM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
dandjurdjevic wrote
Quote:

I'm going to preface my comments with this: I believe sparring is a necessary part of fight training. However sparring is sparring - it is not a fight. It might well be "as close as you get". But it is still MILES off real combat.





Couple of questions. 1) Whats your point 2) WHY is sparring "miles" off real combat? I mean, don't just say that it's miles away and be done with it. Explain why it is?

First, I said it's as close as you can get. Secondly, I think its not as far off as you believe it is.



Quote:


Here is the big point though:

You seem to think that because someone does kata he or she doesn't spar (with contact). Who gave you this idea?





Nope. I never said that and it wasn't my point. I realize that people can and will do both. However I also mentioned that for many folks, training time is limited. If so, its my opinion that engaging in kata for the purposes of functional skill development wastes that valuable time. If however, a person simply enjoys performing kata, great. If a person wishes to spend his or her limited training time doing kata and sparring, great as well. Doing that however (in my opinion) does not make optimal use of one's time. That's a point I've maintained her over the years.

Listen, if training time is limited, I would want to prioritize it, that's all. If my time was limited, kata would be WAY down on my list of things to do. Really, it wouldn't be on that list at all. But that's just what I'd recommend to someone who was asking my advice on the matter. Structure the training so that progressive sparring takes up the majority of one's time. But I never said that people who do kata don't spar. That never came out of my mouth. Hell, I've DONE kata years ago. And we sparred as well. Even then I wished we had done more sparring. I'd probably have been a better fighter earlier, if we had.



Quote:


Your own reference to "controlled contact" (ie. where you hit "heavy" but not "hard" etc.) is old hat in my and many, many other karate schools. Controlled (as opposed to "light" contact or "pulled" punches) comes with the territory in karate - it is inherent in the concept of "kime".

"If you want to learn how to fight, you must practice fighting against someone who is fighting back!"

I could not agree with that sentiment more.






Cool!



Quote:

Why assume otherwise because I do kata?





I've not assumed anything. I don't know you or how you train. Was your name mentioned somewhere? Did I reply to your post or something?? I may have and didn't realize it. If so, I wasn't directing anything at you personally. I'm only speaking generally.



Quote:

Yes, there are many schools out there that don't practise realistically. However arts like karate are practised by a much larger cross-section of society than, say, MMA and boxing. Many choose to do karate as a hobby without contact. Why pick them for your reference point?





I'm not picking anyone in particular. I'm simply providing a point of view.


Quote:


Ma and Pa plus kids who do taekwondo once per week are NEVER going into an MMA gym anyway. Most people (including tma) will agree that the Ma and Pa plus kids stuff is not "optimum fight training" by any stretch. Nor is the related (albeit slightly more serious) offshoot "tag competition".





What I'm saying has nothing to do with MMA or any style. It's conceptual really and is applicable to anyone, anywhere, in any system.




Quote:

there is some discrepancy in tma about how things should be done. But one thing that is consistent amongst the practical tma schools is that the basics training (blocks etc.) has a very important purpose in grooving essential angles of movement and wiring certain pathways in the brain. You cannot appreciate it by watching - particularly when you reference Ma and Pa plus kids or tag style competitions. This is a dilution of tma, not tma.





So, are you saying those angles of movement are only developed through kata or static (dead) drilling? My point has been that anything you can do with kata, you can do without kata, thus making kata or other ritualistic training methods obsolete and unnecessary. All I've been saying is, people don't need kata.


Quote:


I actually use the essence of our basics movements in sparring (though not the exact form).





You SHOULD be using the basics in sparring. Basics are all we have. It's my opinion that "advanced technique" essentially means, "things that aren't practical and workable".


Quote:

"For MY money, I'm not interested in the esoteric and endless days of training with so little resistance that I barely break a sweat."

Whoa! Who are you referencing here? This is an insult to all those tma who have literally poured blood, sweat and tears into each session for decades. I am one of them.





Did I mention your name? Did I say, "dandjurdjevic spends his days training with no resistance or doesn't break a sweat"? A simple yes or no answer will suffice.



Quote:


You clearly haven't trained with good, hard karateka in your life. I suggest you go down to your nearest IOGKF or Jundokan dojo (I can't speak for others - but I can give you my nearest equivalent). Go to Nakamura's dojo or, better yet, go to Morio Higaonna's dojo in Okinawa. Try your luck with some of the black belts. You won't find them "corpses". I dare say that regardless of your own ability you'll have no choice but to respect them as effective contact fighters - in standup and grappling. You'll come out bruised and battered - just as they do AFTER EACH SESSION. Do it or else it's all just a "paper" argument, isn't it?





Well, you're correct in a way; I've not found decent training at any karate place I've ever personally been to. So yeah, technically you would be correct.


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Well you can't contact with someone ALL the time John.





You must have glossed over a lot of things I've written.



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I do kata mostly when I'm on my own. As I said above, go to Nakamura's dojo (he's somewhere in your country!) and you'll be glad if they take a break for kata, let me tell you!





I'll look them up.


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As I've said above, kata and basics in karate is about conditioning and inclucating essential angles of movement and fundamental kinaesthetics. It is NOT necessary for fighting per se. It is however useful for karate technical development; of this I'm sure (based on my own almost 30 years of continuous training).





Karate's technical development? By that do you mean, as apart from fighting?



Quote:

You're very confident about your discoveries. Yet you don't have any willingness to even consider that tma have something to offer. You dismiss them out of hand. On the other hand, I don't dismiss modern combat sports. I'm no slouch at boxing, for example.





I'm just dismissing kata, ritualistic practice and dead patterns.



Quote:

Nothing you have said indicates any awareness of the skills that karate actually employs. I had similar thoughts about certain other arts (eg. tkd) when I was younger - until I actually fought some of their number. Then I had to acknowledge that although I still didn't like their approach they put it to good use (eg. high kicks can be hard to deal with) and they were still effective fighters (even if they weren't about to win an MMA championship - but then again, neither are you or I).





My opinion is my opinion brother, and THAT is inarguable. SHOW me, don't tell me. Then I'll believe.



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We've heard it before a thousand times John. And yet there are many of us who are still quite effective with kata. Go and train with the karateka I mentioned and see how you fare. I'm certain you'll never think that kata is for you - but I guarantee you won't be quite so dismissive and, dare I say it, insulting to some people who I know to be very practical fighters indeed.






My opinion is that any skill developed by these people, has been developed in SPITE of kata. Just imagine how good they'd be if they hadn't adopted it's practice?! They would have likely achieved that level in half the time. That's what I mean by kata being..a waste of time. That's my opinion.



Quote:

I think you mean "with NO respect". Nothing in your posts indicates any real respect for the fighting ability of traditional martial artists, nor respect for their skill level overall, nor respect for their technical knowledge, nor respect for their sincere and long-standing effort.





YOU can take it however you want. I meant what I said, or I'd have not said it. I don't have any belief in kata as a functional practice. Respect for individuals is another matter. Expect when people put words in my mouth, as you are doing now.


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By contrast, last I saw, NO serious traditional martial arists are out there lampooning the kinds of things you do and dismissing your methods as "useless", "fit for fighting corpses" etc.





Because it would only be a brainless assertion to do so. The kinds of "things we do" stem from empirical evidence as their foundation. It would be kind of hard to label them as useless in the light of that understanding.



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Seems to me, you're hoping to catch Victor out with an answer that "proves your point".





I think Victor is capable of speaking for himself. While you're at it, you can do the same for me.



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Well I don't know about Victor, but nowadays I hardly engage in contact at all (shock horror!).

Why not? My body just can't take it (from a degenerative immune disorder). However I've engaged in hard contact for almost 3 decades.
I dare say you'll find the latter is true for Victor; he's had his share of hard knocks, I'm sure (no one who trained in the 70s went without brutally hard training - mostly bareknuckle).





My points, as I've stated before, have nothing to do with Brutality. You're missing the point completely.



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Nowadays I choose to do kata and other exercises because I can still do them and I enjoy them. Furthermore, they are still improving my technique. I notice this when I do spar (even though I might regret the sparring the next day!).





Wonderful. How much time do you devote to practice each week?


Quote:


...your scathing tone is sometimes a bit much.





I'm not perfect and never claimed to be. Some folks don't like the delivery. Mine is just another opinion. You and everyone else is free to form their own, as I've said many times.

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#410652 - 11/04/08 02:08 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: JKogas]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I can see I've touched a raw nerve just by calling you on some of your flawed assumptions and arguments. To the extent that you've asked (opening question), I'm not making any arguments pro-kata - just calling you out on your arguments against kata and tma in general.

All I'll reiterate is that no matter which way you try to spin or revise it, you can't change the fact that your posts arrogantly and summarily dismiss karate and other tma methods as "useless". Your scathing tone towards tma is not a matter of debate - if you are honest you'll agree that it is a matter of fact. Your posts are clearly antagonistic towards tma in general - you can't hide behind the revision: "I was just criticising kata - not karate or tma". If kata is an important part of an art (as it is with karate and most tma) they are indivisible. For that matter, I doubt you have any time for, say, karate punching practise (what this post is ostensibly about - how you dragged kata into it is beyond me) or karate blocks etc. etc. In short you seem to feel that everything in tma is useless - unless and until it morphs into boxing, then it's okay.

And even if you haven't specifically directed your comments to "dandjurdjevic", your broad assumptions and dismissive put downs of what I choose to do is an affront to me and to many other tma on this forum (as any reasonable person would expect). It is particularly insulting because it assumes we have ignorantly pursued the "wrong direction" instead of your "better" direction just because we won't "listen" or (as you said to me once) "we don't get it". Your tag line "wants you to KNOW" is consistent with this theme.

Your attitude suggests that we tma "don't know" what you call "the truth of combat" and that you'll "inform us". It ignores that many of us are thinking, well-reasoned martial artists who have had plenty of "hard knocks" realism yet "miraculously" still choose to do what we do. It ignores that we might just have some point to what we do. It doesn't even feign respect or politeness for our many years of effort.

If the shoe were on the other foot and someone were rubbishing boxing continually, suggesting that boxers "don't get it" and need to know "the truth about combat" (ie. the "truth" according to that person) I'm sure your indignation would run for many more pages than your last response! Nor would it help if the person then revised his position as follows: "I was only criticising boxing sparring and heavy bag training as unrealistic - not boxers in general! Sheesh! Think of how much better they'd be if they did some kata instead!" Of course, no one is making or has ever (to my knowledge) made that argument or anything like it.

If you want to start getting stuck so overtly into someone else's art, then from now on expect some "resistance". Otherwise, don't start none and there'll be none.

Oh - and I haven't missed the point of your posts. It's you who seems to miss the point of mine. Take my reference to "brutal" as just one example: it was intended as a euphamism for hard, realistic training undertaken in the 70s karate dojos. I was specifically countering your inference that karate training is not "real" or "live". I was not referring to "brutality" in any wider sense (and I think you know that).
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#410653 - 11/04/08 03:32 AM Re: Who has the best strikes Karate or Boxing? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Dan, I think the thing is that people who don't get kata don't get karate in general. But that's to be expected because most people have never seen good karate. When we talk about kata its not just performing kata over and over again. When I teach a student to attack I am teaching him kata. When I teach a student to defend I am teaching him kata. When I teach my students resistive kumite drills with contact I am teaching him kata. When I have my students hit the focus mitts, kick shields, and thai pads I am teaching him kata. The actual "kata performance" is done as either a warm up or cool down and lasts maybe 10 minutes. The key is kata is a storehouse for both technique and fighting principles. It is a method of not only remembering technique, but it is a note pad of fighting strategies. So when a karateka trains on his own and practices kata (after lifting weights and running) as a cool down exercise or before as a warm up the drills come back to mind, the pad work comes back to mind, and new ways of applying and attacking and defending come to mind as well. Then the student takes that note pad back to class and works the old and the new to gain a new understanding of what he or she has been thinking and visualizing. The thing about karate is that although there are seemingly many techniques there are actually only a few. Kata simply shows many variations on a few themes. The "basic" technique is pretty much applying one technique in one way. The intermediate technique is applying one technique in many different ways. And the advanced technique is applying many different techniques in the same way. But all are effective and all are aimed at developing functional karate. So yes, you can do everything you can do with kata without it. In the beginning it will be easier to do without kata, however, the more advanced you get the harder it will be and eventually you will be left wishing you had kata to aid in your study, that is, if you were doing everything that is contained in karate without kata. Karate is about making everything you do prepare you for combat.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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