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#410331 - 10/30/08 03:49 AM
Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations
[Re: DeadlyKnuckles]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
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Quote:
To practice kata to become better able to defend yourself is like saying you practice swimming to become a better runner. While some things can translate over in that regard, ultimately you would be wasting your time. Time which would be better spent working closely with what it is you wish to become better at.
With that said, I would sooner do iron palm training than subject myself to practicing kata again.
I agree with Brian.
Many people train kata incorrectly - giving rise to a misunderstanding of its purpose.
Kata is principally a series of isolated techniques. Every physical discipline - including every fighting system - involves some element of technique isolation as part of training. In boxing technique isolation happens in air drills; in BJJ it is with floor drills sans partner. In tennis, golf - you name it - there are drills which "go through the motions".
If you don't understand what kata develops I suggest it is because: (a) you never did it properly; and/or
(b) you never did enough to realise its benefits. I wonder, for example, whether you and the other kata detractors here understand what I mean by focus ("kime" in Japanese) or whether this concept is a complete mystery to you.
If it is a mystery I can point you to any number of videos of traditional punching which demonstrate this concept. In essence it involves learning to stop your punch without deceleration. In terms of physics this is the key to maximising your momentum transfer (and hence "hitting harder").
I can show you videos of good makiwara punching. See if you can hit it anywhere near as hard. And if you think it is all about just practising on the makiwara, think again. The best karate punchers will tell you that they do/have done K10s if not K100s of "air" punches (in kata and otherwise) so as to groove an efficient motion and learn "focus". It is in this vein (and for this reason) that a kenjutsu practitioner will practise 1000 "air" cuts with a sword every morning. He/she could just go straight to cutting rice stalks, but they don't. And if you think they don't know how to cut with their swords, think again...
Apart from teaching these sorts of essential principles of tma, kata is, as Brian points out, usually ignored and the techniques that comprise them are hardly ever applied in free-sparring when they can and should. I certainly have.
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#410332 - 10/30/08 07:02 AM
Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations
[Re: dandjurdjevic]
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Member
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 239
Loc: swansea,wales
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Quote:
If it is a mystery I can point you to any number of videos of traditional punching which demonstrate this concept. In essence it involves learning to stop your punch without deceleration. In terms of physics this is the key to maximising your momentum transfer (and hence "hitting harder").
focus (kime) refers to the concentration of all energy of the body the instant a technique makes contact with its target ?found this in an article on kime that i would guess amongst karate practioners is universaly accepted ?
not having a dig here dan,but the above example just says proper relaxation body mechanics result in hitting harder for all of us who practice MA no matter what its called.
so im with you there no mystery at all.
_________________________
if only we could strike with the eyes - from the thought to the fist how much time is lost ?
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#410333 - 10/30/08 09:09 AM
Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations
[Re: Kope]
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Prolific
Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10411
Loc: Great White North
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Quote:
Quote:
Quoted by Kope
Quote:
I am claiming that those who perform Kata correctly will see greater, and faster progress, than those who do not, all other things being equal.
Are you kidding me???? And what do you base that on?
The entirety of peered research on performance enhancement in the field of sports psychology.
Kope, are you a politician? I would have sooner have your tell me "they" say so. Let's see you back up this mumbo jumbo because otherwise you are talking out your @ss!
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#410334 - 10/30/08 09:18 AM
Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations
[Re: BrianS]
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Prolific
Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10411
Loc: Great White North
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Brian, I have never seen any kata on the internet or in person that would lead me to believe otherwise, unless you are doing something totally different and are the only one.
The statement above that doing kata will only make your kata better; or something like that, I can agree with that.
Kata, that I believe is left to the individual and "their" interpretation. A person such as yourself may get something out of it as that is what "you" are looking for. But for me to believe kata is an excellent self defense tool to end fights quickly; not going to buy it. You want to end a fight quickly then you need to learn how to fight and kata is not fighting. You need to work on timing and speed and technique and while you may argue that is what you are doing, without an opponent that you cannot truly comprehend the uniqueness of what you think may happen and what will happen as people are unpredictable. Kata doesn't allow for any interaction and that is one if its failings.
I honestly would like to see your kata to make my own interpretation. You put down TKD patterns however as I mentioned before, I can see the techniques and can understand them however I would sooner use those techniques against a resisting opponent/partner to get the "true" benefit. And as for "one-steps", working with a partner the benefits are far greater then any kata any day of the week. Dealing with sweeps, falling techniques, hard blocking, timing, distance and other useful factors; I see nothing wrong with this UNLESS this again is your sole thing you do. Supplement it is useful but by itself not. I would sooner have some type of contact then doing techniques in my mind, in the air.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"
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#410335 - 10/30/08 09:19 AM
Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations
[Re: Kope]
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Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific
Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15629
Loc: York PA. USA
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Kope - Quote:
The entirety of peered research on performance enhancement in the field of sports psychology.
Unless you provide said reseach, you are simply bull$hitting. Again, if that was true, pro fighters would be doing it. Put up or shut up.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin
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#410336 - 10/30/08 10:11 AM
Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations
[Re: skinters]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
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Well skinters, there's focus, and then there's focus... The definition you've found is correct, but tma prioritises "kime" to a far greater extent than any sports discipline I'm aware of. In physics focus or kime is a combination of: (a) minimising deceleration;
(b) correct distancing; and
(c) optimum depth penetration. This might seem like common sense, but as I've said, how it is implemented varies considerably. Have a look at a good karateka and listen to the "crack" of the punch. It isn't just stiff clothing either. Try it yourself. Can you stop your punch with anywhere near the minimal deceleration exhibited by, say, Ed in the video below? http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=VxwzZ7sC8L0Or try the whiplike crack of Tsuguo Sakumoto: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=_L-axVODk-EIf you think this is just show, you're wrong. The exact same technique is used against a makiwara (striking post). Try hitting one and see how you go: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=IG1X8Ouu-GUFocus (kime) is just one small aspect of tma that is trained in kata (others include technique grooving, combinations, footwork, flow etc.). I have chosen focus as an example only. I'm not trying to exhaustively list what kata is for. Suffice it to say, focus is apposite to this dicussion because it relates to the question that sparked this thread. Focus is directly relevant to bareknuckle fighting in civilian defence. And focus (in a dynamic context) is one of the key indicators of a good kata performance imho. As I said before, if you are a ring fighter you may never want or need to develop focus to this level. It won't really help you with gloved sports disciplines where different striking is preferred. Moreover, if you want competition ability you have other, more urgent, things to work on, like conditioning, power and fitness. I wouldn't be dwelling on traditional skills too much if I were preparing for a ring fight tomorrow. But for long term civilian defence kata is not quite as esoteric and useless as you think. That's all I'm trying to say.
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#410337 - 10/30/08 11:31 AM
Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations
[Re: dandjurdjevic]
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Prolific
Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10411
Loc: Great White North
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If you want to do kata then do kata. If you get something out of doing kata then do kata. It can be beautiful as I've seen some very unique ones and it does have techniques it it. HOWEVER kata is not required for self defense and will only improve one's self defense if one feels it will; it is not necessary nor will it improve ones self defense.
There are more then likely more people more effective at self defense that don't do kata then those that do. Each have benefited so again, if you think it will benefit you then do it. Are there better ways to be more effective at self defense; for sure. We each learn things different ways and if kata is how you learn then continue to do so. I wonder however that many feel that kata is the way to go as that is what they were told and have trained for years but have not been in a quality system that does teach self defense that doesn't have it it in? Not saying the system they are in is not quality, I am saying that there are other systems out there that are better then others that don't have kata in them that would be as if not more beneficial.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"
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