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#410318 - 10/29/08 11:31 AM Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations [Re: butterfly]
Kope Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 8
Quote:

Kope,

Quote:

But someone who practices their forms correctly and diligently along with sparing training will see faster improvement and be more effective in a real life situation than someone who does not -- all other things being equal.





Disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. The reason is that while some may be able to defend themselves who study kata, there are those who defend themselves well without it.






First, I am not claiming that those who do not perform Kata are not capable of defending themselves adequately. I am claiming that those who perform Kata correctly will see greater, and faster progress, than those who do not, all other things being equal.

In most cases, all things aren't equal. But that in no way detracts from my point. You are disagreeing with a straw-man.

Quote:


To ascribe to kata these "better" benefits of effective use while not looking at why others who do not practice kata seem to be able to perform well is a point that must be taken and looked at.





Not really.

Quote:


Also, that these characteristics that you have listed could not be gained in other ways, perhaps better ways, than kata would give them to you.




Well over a thousand years of experiential evidence around the world disagrees with you.

The problem, I suspect, is that you have limited experience in how forms are correctly performed. I'm also suspecting that you imagine I am saying that one should spend less time doing things such as sparing in order to perform forms. That is also not what I'm claiming.

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#410319 - 10/29/08 11:38 AM Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations [Re: Dereck]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I think people put too much into what Kata is or isn't, kata is just part of Karate a catalogue of a Masters techniques. It also carries the look and feel of a system imho. It doesn't neccessary teach how to fight but maybe how to take advantage of a certain situation.

My personal view is if you did to a person what most intermediate Katas suggested you'd be put in jail for manslaughter or aggravated assault. But Kata is just the study guide of a system just as sets, forms and dance are the way of Silat and other supposited Combat systems they transfer there skill sets through a lesson plan.

Of course doing the set/form/dance/kata by yourself won't bring about all the skills needed to adjust to change in combat.

But kata is the road map to figting effectively and efficiently, not only to injury but to heal but thats another topic. Kata movement doesn't help in fighting no more then practicng a left or right hand punch over and over by yourself. But it does help refine and develope the overall technique that can be used in a real situation when needed. Kata isn't the Birthday Cake but it could be the icing or one of the candle of the whole, that makes the cake have its meaning.

Kata helps if you don't know how to fight (defining basic movement), after learning to fight a certain way it has less meaning. After being successful at fighting you want refinement and Kata becomes another study source, If you choose to go this route.

There are many ways/method to reach a end Kata is but a part of one. By no means is it the the fastest or only way.


Edited by Neko456 (10/29/08 11:39 AM)
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#410320 - 10/29/08 01:04 PM Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations [Re: Kope]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I am claiming that those who perform Kata correctly will see greater, and faster progress, than those who do not, all other things being equal.




And your evidence is........? Wouldn't pro fighters train kata if that was true? I really have no dog in the kata/no kata fight, but statements like that are simply incorrect. If you want to do kata, feel free. But don't make spurious claims about it's efficacy.

Quote:

Quote:


To ascribe to kata these "better" benefits of effective use while not looking at why others who do not practice kata seem to be able to perform well is a point that must be taken and looked at.





Not really.




Care to elaborate? Butterfly makes a very valid point. "Nuh-uh" is not a reasonable reply.

Quote:

Well over a thousand years of experiential evidence around the world disagrees with you.

The problem, I suspect, is that you have limited experience in how forms are correctly performed. I'm also suspecting that you imagine I am saying that one should spend less time doing things such as sparing in order to perform forms. That is also not what I'm claiming.




You would be very wise not to make assumptions about the quality or depth of butterfly's martial arts education. He is EXTREMELY skilled and knowledgable, much more than what he lets on here.
_________________________
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#410321 - 10/29/08 01:30 PM Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations [Re: MattJ]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quoted by Kope
Quote:

I am claiming that those who perform Kata correctly will see greater, and faster progress, than those who do not, all other things being equal.




Are you kidding me???? And what do you base that on?

Simple fact is this; kata is not required to learn self defense or to learn to fight. Those that train kata are no better off then somebody that doesn't train them. To think otherwise is ludicrous.

There are those individuals that "may" benefit from it but then again there are probably more that wouldn't. Just like some learn from books, DVDs and the such, these types of tools can be beneficial but not necessary.
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#410322 - 10/29/08 02:08 PM Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations [Re: Dereck]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
The people I have seen who could make use of Kata could already fight anyway and their interpretations came from that fighting ability.
Iv never seen it the other way round where a Kata teaches the non fighter to fight or fight back.
From researching the research of other more knowledgable martial artists katas seem to be a mismatch of allsorts from different origins.Some being actual ideas from fights someone (the kata/form creater) must of had and other things just excercises or some kind of cultural symbols expressed in movement.Finding whats what is difficult and lost because we dont know the origins so Iv concluded its just better to learn to fight.Then maybe going back to katas/forms if someone wanted to and some ideas could be found.But learning to fight against other skilled fighters should never be overlooked IMO,and is the key.
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#410323 - 10/29/08 08:57 PM Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations [Re: matxtx]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
You don't NEED kata for pro competition. You probably don't even WANT it. That doesn't mean it is useless for civilian defence.

A career in competition has a relatively small "window of opportunity". Those competing want quick results. Kata, on the other hand, is very much a long-term proposition.

For those of us who are interested in long-term development and ongoing improvement, kata is (in my experience and that of my senior training partners/colleagues) quite useful. It isolates certain movements/concepts for refinement. ["Kime" or focus is one such refinement: yet it takes many years to develop and is largely redundant in a gloved discipline.]

In these circumstances I think it is hardly surprising that competition fighters don't use kata.

In any event, the argument: "pro competition fighters don't use kata, therefore it is useless for civilian self defence" is fundamentally flawed on another level: it assumes that competition is the same as civilian defence. It is not. You can scoff, gloss over the issue or provide qualifications etc. all you like. This point does not change.

I am not suggesting that pro fighters are anything other than good fighters; but they are peparing for a specific activity which has specific rules and other environmental variables. It is an activity for which kata is not going to yield results sufficiently quickly.

I have different (long term) goals and hence kata has some use to me.
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#410324 - 10/29/08 11:21 PM Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations [Re: Dereck]
Kope Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 8
Quote:

Quoted by Kope
Quote:

I am claiming that those who perform Kata correctly will see greater, and faster progress, than those who do not, all other things being equal.




Are you kidding me???? And what do you base that on?




The entirety of peered research on performance enhancement in the field of sports psychology.

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#410325 - 10/29/08 11:53 PM Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations [Re: Kope]
DeadlyKnuckles Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 130
Loc: United States, Florida
How about throwing us some names or published papers that validate your claim?

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#410326 - 10/30/08 01:44 AM Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations [Re: DeadlyKnuckles]
DeadlyKnuckles Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 130
Loc: United States, Florida
To practice kata to become better able to defend yourself is like saying you practice swimming to become a better runner. While some things can translate over in that regard, ultimately you would be wasting your time. Time which would be better spent working closely with what it is you wish to become better at.

With that said, I would sooner do iron palm training than subject myself to practicing kata again.

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#410327 - 10/30/08 02:55 AM Re: Purpose of Kata in street situations [Re: Kope]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

First, I am not claiming that those who do not perform Kata are not capable of defending themselves adequately. I am claiming that those who perform Kata correctly will see greater, and faster progress, than those who do not, all other things being equal.





As a long time practitioner and advocate of kata I HAVE to disagree with this premise. But, I'd like to know what they would see faster and greater results in?

Quote:

Well over a thousand years of experiential evidence around the world disagrees with you.




Wha? hehee, now that's funny! I don't know anyone here that is 1000 years old or who can say without falter who did what back when.

Quote:

The problem, I suspect, is that you have limited experience in how forms are correctly performed. I'm also suspecting that you imagine I am saying that one should spend less time doing things such as sparing in order to perform forms. That is also not what I'm claiming.




I have to agree that most people practice kata wrong. Not just in the performance,but in the overall training of kata. Performing a kata will only make you better at performing kata. you have to USE what you are performing.
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