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#409935 - 10/21/08 04:28 AM A day with another Hakutsuru Kata
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Matsumura Shorin Ryu karate -Hakutsuru ton kata.
A version of the 5 okinawan white crane imported from cinese GoKenki.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdyM7aJAnvA
Matsumura Shorin Ryu karate -Hakutsuru so kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2ihgliZSdw
Matsumura Shorin Ryu karate Rohai (jo) Kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfgpRPN4s8k
Matsumura Shorin Ryu karate Naihanchi ShoDan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPYJ1zUNm1I
Matsumura Shorin Ryu karate Naihanchi NiDan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zQUt7z9VIg
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#409936 - 10/21/08 07:52 AM Re: A day with another Hakutsuru Kata [Re: Victor Smith]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
The Rohai kata is suppose to be Matsumura Kenpo......doesn't look like what I was taught by Kuda Shinshi.......
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#409937 - 10/21/08 07:19 PM Re: A day with another Hakutsuru Kata [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
interesting find Victor, the kata (with the exception of the 2 hakutsuru kata) certianly have a very similair 'shape' to ours, a different feel perhaps.
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#409938 - 10/22/08 05:17 AM Re: A day with another Hakutsuru Kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Thanks Victor, the Rohai was particularly interesting to me as it is not too far from Shotokan Rohai/Meikyo and because it shows how (what I assume were) earlier movements were reinterpreted in the Shotokan version.

I seem to remember seeing a translation of Rohai as something like "vision of a white crane" but I had never made a connection directly with crane kungfu, assuming that it referred to the one legged stance (altered in the Shotokan version), just as our Gankaku (Chinto) refers to this stance not the origin of the kata. Do you know if Rohai was ever practiced in Chinese styles?

Ben

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#409939 - 10/22/08 06:58 PM Re: A day with another Hakutsuru Kata [Re: Barad]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Meikyo is one of those Shotokan kata that I just cannot see any value in.
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#409940 - 10/23/08 04:27 AM Re: A day with another Hakutsuru Kata [Re: Barad]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Barad,

Unfortunately I know of no Chinese equivalent for Rohai, of course there a likely a thousand Southern Chinese systems, any of which might be candidates for Okinawan sources. Thus there may be a source.
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#409941 - 10/23/08 04:51 AM Re: A day with another Hakutsuru Kata [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Shonuff,

You are probably right-there is nothing uniquely useful from a fighting perspective (unless you like triangular jumping elbow strikes and bo disarms) but I quite like practicing it all the same. Some Japanese instructors I came across used to teach that the jump was performed as if you had your back to a cliff and you jumped off and back in mid air to surprise and counter against your opponent! In other words they had no idea what it meant...

It is also interesting to see the opening movements of Heian Nidan in the sequence towards the end. It was actually an old film of Harada Sensei of the Shotokai years ago performing Rohai and that movement in particular with the lead fist pointing a bit more forward instead of up, so more like a punch, that gave me a first clue as to a better interpretation of the opening of Heian Nidan.

Some of the stories relating to the kata and the alternative Shotokan name of Meikyo (silver/shiny mirror I think) are also quite interesting, relating to the Shinto sun goddess Amaterasu ("Shining Heaven"), supposedly the ancestor of the Imperial dynasty, coming out of cave and looking at herself in a mirror. Of course it is probably Funakoshi grafting a Japanese story onto an Okinawan kata...

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/amaterasu.html

Ben

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#409942 - 10/23/08 05:58 AM Re: A day with another Hakutsuru Kata [Re: Barad]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
The "Meikyo/silver mirror" connection by the way is with the opening movement where you are briefly looking at your palms, as I you were looking in a mirror I suppose. No connection to likely applications though...

Ben

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#409943 - 10/23/08 08:32 AM Re: A day with another Hakutsuru Kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Victor,

By the wonders of Google, I found this comment by Joe swift from 2001:

"Joe Swift
() Posts: n/a

Rohai no Kata

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although this kata is often described as a "crane" or a "heron" form, the etymology may reveal a different origin.

Accroding to both Tokashiki Iken (Gohakukai) and Kinjo Akio (Genbukan), the term Luohan as in Luohan Quanfa (Arhat Boxing) is actually pronounced Lohai in Fujian,,, pronounce this in Ryukyuan/Japanese and you get Rohai!

The signature posture (one leg up, open hand in front of forehead, open hand down), looks crane-ish, but if you close the fists, it is a signature Arhat Boxing posture, according to Kinjo...

Anyway, just my two yen worth!"

I can kind of see what he means about the one-legged posture.

Ben

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#409944 - 10/23/08 11:10 AM Re: A day with another Hakutsuru Kata [Re: Barad]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
nice find.
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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