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#409902 - 10/20/08 10:05 AM Musul, Yusul, Haesul
Yugen83 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
It has been brought to my attention that the suffix "Do" is not a Korean word, but a Japanese word and that its use is a sure sign that what you are practicing is not an old indigenous Korean martial art, but a Korean version of a Japanese martial art. The Koreans do not use "Do" or "Jutsu", but rather the suffixes "Musul", "Yusul", and "Haesul". While I certainly understand the logic behind it, I am no expert on Korean martial arts, so I would like to know what the resident Korean martial artists think about this claim. I personally think that it is a matter of semantics, but again, I am no expert on the KMA and my opinion is probably far out in left feild somewhere.
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#409903 - 10/20/08 11:21 AM Re: Musul, Yusul, Haesul [Re: Yugen83]
DarkPhoenix Offline
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Registered: 09/29/08
Posts: 38
Loc: Hicksville, NY, USA
I though the Korean form of "do" meant Disciple, not way.

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#409904 - 10/21/08 03:46 AM Re: Musul, Yusul, Haesul [Re: DarkPhoenix]
Yugen83 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
Quote:

I though the Korean form of "do" meant Disciple, not way.




It probably does, again, I am no expert on the Korean arts. My main reason for starting this thread was to find out if, in fact, the story that was presented to me by a colleague holds any weight. She told me that the convention "Do" doesn't appear in any Korean martial arts prior to the Japanese occupation and that the very word "Do" isn't even a Korean word to begin with, but a Japanese one. I am not qualified to state whether such a thing is true or false, as my knowledge of the Korean arts is limited to some research in TKD only, so I figured that the KMA-ers on FA.com might be able to shed some light on this issue. BTW, thanks for your response. Given my track record on this forum, I didn't think anyone would even take my thread seriously .
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#409905 - 10/21/08 10:40 AM Re: Musul, Yusul, Haesul [Re: Yugen83]
DarkPhoenix Offline
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Registered: 09/29/08
Posts: 38
Loc: Hicksville, NY, USA
Well considering that the three countries use have been using each other characters interchangeably for quite some time, it would make sense that it is in the names of several Korean arts. It may just be their pronunciation of the character or word that was misconstrued. I only know a little bit about the Asian languages and would love to learn more. Maybe we can get other people to give either their views, or evidence they may have.

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#409906 - 10/21/08 09:58 PM Re: Musul, Yusul, Haesul [Re: DarkPhoenix]
Yugen83 Offline
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Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
Okay, after further conversation with said colleague, the definitions, according to her, are thus:

Yusul = The Korean equivalent of "Do"
Musul = The Korean equivalent of "Jutsu"
Haesul = The Korean equivalent of "Bunkai"

Dark, I understand that they use the same characters as they are all derived from the Chinese characters (Kanji and Hanja). As far as the standard or main writing forms, they don't use each other's characters, Japanese use hiragana and katakana, and Koreans use Hangeul. Chinese use, well, their own characters. I can see where my colleague is coming from when she says that "Do" doesn't appear in the Korean language prior to the Japanese occupation. Why would The Koreans use a Japanese word or vice versa when both nations had their own language and could translate foreign words and concepts into their own language without having to stick with the original foreign word?

So, if her position is true then Taekwondo would be Taekwon Yusul if it were an indigenous martial art passed down from 2000 or so years ago (or however that story goes). It would be weird saying it that way, though. Taekwon Yusul, Taekwon Musul, Hapki Yusul, Hapki Musul, Hwarang Yusul, Hwarang Musul. Well, if nothing else, it is definitely interesting.
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#409907 - 10/21/08 10:55 PM Re: Musul, Yusul, Haesul [Re: Yugen83]
TKD_X Offline
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
Hapki Yusul actually exists
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post16016545
the hapki yusul website cites choi yong sul as it's founder. wikipedia cites choi yong sul as the founder of hapkido. i believe they are one in the same. with yusul meaning "do" as you said.

wikipedia says that yusul and jiujitsu have the same characters. i would say that yusul would be best related to a grappling-ish style, like hapkido (hapki yusul).

as for musul, i don't exactly agree with the jutsu part. the reason for that is that mu (or moo) in korean means martial/military, as in hanmudo (korean military/martial way/art), yongmudo (yongin university martial art), or han moo kwan (korean military school). mudo means martial arts. i believe mudo and musul are one in the same.

that brings me to the conclusion that sul is the equivalent of "do". yusul would be a grappling art (i wonder if there is a connection of the japanese "ju" meaning gentle and the korean "yu" which applies to "gentle" arts.) and musul is any martial art.

That brings us to Haesul . . . I have no idea!

Other connections could be made with kuk sool(sul) won or hoshinsul (which i believe are one-step sparring techniques and such).

Disclaimer: my info came from wikipedia and i am not an etymologist.

-TKD_X
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#409908 - 10/21/08 11:11 PM Re: Musul, Yusul, Haesul [Re: TKD_X]
TKD_X Offline
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
Upon more looking, i found that the korean word for judo is indeed "yudo"

if sul does mean "do", then yusul=judo. less literally, ju means gentle. yusul therefore could refer to any "gentle" art, such as hapkido (hapkiyusul). sul might be the equivalent of jutsu/jitsu because yusul has the same characters as jiujitsu/jujutsu. jujutsu means "gentle way" (approximately).

It all fits together.
i couldn't find a literal translation for hosinsul. so i'm still trying.

as an update on musul, if you look up mudo on wikipedia, it brings up the page for "korean martial arts". in parentheses, it has the hangul for korean martial arts. the first symbol is "moo/mu", the second however is not "do". after comparing to the second symbol in kuk sool won, i found that they are the same. pretty good evidence that sul=do.

I have no idea why this topic perplexed me so much. Must be too much caffeine. Now if only i knew what Haesul meant.

-TKD_X
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#409909 - 10/22/08 10:33 AM Re: Musul, Yusul, Haesul [Re: TKD_X]
Yugen83 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
Hey, good stuff, TKD_X! It helps a buch coming from someone with a background in KMA. I personally think that is all a matter of semantics, Koreans just simply using what is expedient for them. Everybody has heard of "Do" so why not use that instead of using "sul" or "yusul". Of course, I am mostly wrong, but JMHO. It is very confusing, indeed! You can imagine how much fun it was debating this in person .
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#409910 - 10/22/08 06:36 PM Re: Musul, Yusul, Haesul [Re: Yugen83]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
Glad to contribute! I love anything that furthers my knowledge of martial arts. I like having kind of general knowledge like this. I'm the guy who has some bits and pieces, whereas others like ITFUnity have the specifics. Is it relevant what they used to call hapkido? maybe not. is it interesting? sure.
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#409911 - 10/23/08 08:02 AM Re: Musul, Yusul, Haesul [Re: Yugen83]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Haesul = The Korean equivalent of "Bunkai"



"Haesul" means "analysis in depth".. the equivilant of "Bunkai" is "Boon Hae"

There are probibly other korean terms for it also.

Stuart
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