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#409641 - 10/13/08 02:12 PM Differences in sparring
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
I usually spar ITF style but I don't have a side facing bouncing stance rather more of a boxing stance. I cover up alot, block and counter. Its comfortable, safe but its not really looked upon positively in the ITF club because its not really an open style of fighting.

Recently I've been going to a local kickboxing club were it seems they tend to fight more like me. The sparring seemed to be rigid with alot of blocking etc. It was just more close fighting with alot of short strikes and banging of limbs.

I then openned it up alot more like my ITF club does and moved more, took a side facing stance and used some of the faster/loser techniques and it really opened the sparring up.

The point I guess I am trying to make is that people put Tae Kown Do down alot and that is fine but I was in a situation were its fluidity/quickness came in handy. No sparring or martial art is the be all and end all but they all teach us different things thaty can be used in various situation. It is up to us to open our eyes and have the brains to know when to use the techniques.

My instructor said when he was younger he would go anywhere to learn from a good fighter. If he heard there was a good figher from a specific style he woulg visit them and see if he could learn from them and incorporate the techniques into his fighting regardless of their style.

Good words to train by.

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#424100 - 12/19/09 10:28 AM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: flynch]
von1 Offline
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Flynch

I found this old post; I cannot believe more people have not responded to it, nice topic.

I currently train WTF style sparing but there was I brief time where I trained ITF style. On a personal level I find the ITF type sparring feels more natural for me but the more WTF I train the more comfortable I become with it. I have discovered that mixing the two styles together is the best option for me. (One example) ITF front leg lead kick sets up a verity of very effective WTF kicks and techniques. Most WTF do not utilize the front leg like ITF would. Also many WTF techniques serve well to disrupt many ITF techniques, including many hand techniques. Itís the best of both worlds. There are a million other ways to blend the two together but that option does have its limits where competition is involved.

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#424101 - 12/19/09 01:55 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: flynch]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
I feel very much the same way Flynch. I am an ITF guy through and through, but spar with quite a closed, more squared-up style. I've been training for the last couple of years at a kickboxing club, and most guys assume I am a boxer strangely, because I use a lot of head movement and throw a lot fewer kicks than most guys.

I think I've got to the point in my sparring where I rely less and less on athleticism and "fancy" techniques, and more and more on experience and tactics. I like to "rough-up" fancy, technical fighters; I like to use finesse against athletic fighters and so on. The point is, how open your sparring is, or how many kicks you use compared to punches will depend for the most part on who you are fighting. It's no good simply declaring that somebody's style is bad, or worse than one's own, because it might just be kryptonite to someone else's style.

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#424105 - 12/20/09 05:11 AM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: Supremor]
flynch Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
I forgot about this thanks for bringing it up.

Oddly enough I have been told that I look like a boxer as well. I just have my own thing maybe because I am larger but slower than most of the people I fight it just causes me to rely on covering up, jamming, and countering after taking a shot. Use alot of basic techniques off the lead front snap, turning and hand combinations.

The fancy stuff I learn for testing as a requirement but in sparring I try to keep it simple. Direct techniques that I can deliver with speed (well speedy for me), acuracy and power (power that will allow me to go through a block).

The individual I asked to be one of the sparring partners at my bb test (becasue he was senior, faster, and had better techniques) commented that I covered up well leaving little room to deliver an effective strike.

Thus works well in normal sparring but not so well when testing as I aways feel I have to push the action and then I leave myself open against the faster opponents.

So maybe my style is a reaction to the competion I used to face on a regular basis but it was nice to know that when required I could change it up.

I never gave much thought to WTF techniques before (not a comment on them just a reality) but after seeing their turning kicks which ITF might say were more angle kicks with little hip rotation I started to incorporate them into my training. (I also saw a karate guy teaching these) They are not as powerful but the sure get there in a hurry which is beneficial for me and the rear leg has enough power to make the opponent take notice.


Edited by flynch (12/20/09 05:12 AM)

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#424107 - 12/20/09 09:27 AM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: flynch]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
flynch
(Quote)

Never gave much thought to WTF techniques They are not as powerful but the sure get there in a hurry which is beneficial for me and the rear leg has enough power to make the opponent take notice.
(End quote)

I am not attempting to start an argument but it is a myth that WTF techniques are not powerful.


A more accurate way of stating this would have been,

They are not as powerful for (ME), because I do not train them as a WTF person would.

Believe me, I know, I train with these people and they deliver these blows with devastating, unimaginable power. Also many of these techniques are delivered with rotation of the hip. What you want to accomplish will determine weather one rotates the hip or not. Some times a technique is done to simply set up another and the need for power is mute, the power will be in what is coming.
Now if it is strictly Olympic type sparing than it is all about speed, but many WTF/most WTF, do not train strictly Olympic sparing, we train a combination of speed and power techniques.
All that padding is not a fashion statement it is for protection and even then we suffer bruised and broken ribs, concussions and other injuries, so yes these techniques can be delivered with extreme power.

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#424109 - 12/21/09 01:41 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: von1]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
No problem. Having an intelligent discussion is not starting a fight.

Yes you are correct it may not have been clear and it appeared less clear with your quote which is out of context.

I am generally referring to my performance of these kicks. So this is how they work for me not for others. Now to be clear I did learn these kicks by trainning with WTF black belts both local and from Korea (we are at a university and get exchange students, there is a WTF school as well but the quality of sparring is very low so those WTF that want to spar everyday come to our classes). That is for me when I throw a traditional ITF style turning kick rear leg with full hip rotation, through the target, contact made with the ball of the foot not the instep it is very powerful. When I do these modified (what I will call WTF) angle kicks there is little rotation they are somewhere between a front snap kick and a turning kick. The are fast as there is less distance and no chamber but for me they are more lick a slap. They can kind of stun or score a point but they will not do an damage. So my point was they were new to me when I saw them and I was able to incorporate them into my fighting for specific sitations. I can understand your point about them being used as a jab to set up a spining heel kick or something. I have never seen them or expereinced them being used to set up a more powerful turning kick.

I do not disagree with you that the kicks can be delivered with power I have heard this before but I can say that from the many WTF people that have come through our school I have just not seen it yet.

If your experience is different I only submit that we are constantly trying to get the WTF guys to rotate their hips, rotate on the ball of their supporting leg and kick through the target. If this was a one time thing then I would not mention it but it is fairly consistent.

We do train a little harder than most schools as even some ITF black belts only last a few classes.

So no arguement or offense just my personnal experience over about 5 years of trainning at this school and seeing maybe 20 to 30 different WTF students. I would be happy if you could provide links to any vidoes etc.

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#424122 - 12/22/09 10:07 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I think a turning kick is a turning kick. I see no difference in the styles. I think rather it is a difference in how you train AND how you wish to apply it. To me the most powerful turning kick is the one that uses the ball of the foot as the attacking tool. I have seen more than 7 boards broken using this and in the ITF WCs the power test in turning kick usually starts off at 7 boards, ending at times at 10. I am not sure what the world record is.

Now I would think that your typical WTF player would have a fast and very powerful turning kick, as that is what is needed to score. You must hit with power & the sparring rules dictate that you must be a fast counter kicker, as that is how you score. In ITF tournaments, since full contact is not allowed, I can only imagine that it would not always be trained in that fashion.
However truth be told, that when I see a great WTF player, I usually see an awesome roundhouse kicker

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#424129 - 12/23/09 09:25 AM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: flynch]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
(Quote)

I am generally referring to my performance of these kicks. So this is how they work for me not for others. Now to be clear I did learn these kicks by trainning with WTF black belts both local and from Korea (we are at a university and get exchange students, there is a WTF school as well but the quality of sparring is very low so those WTF that want to spar everyday come to our classes). That is for me when I throw a traditional ITF style turning kick rear leg with full hip rotation, through the target, contact made with the ball of the foot not the instep it is very powerful. When I do these modified (what I will call WTF) angle kicks there is little rotation they are somewhere between a front snap kick and a turning kick. The are fast as there is less distance and no chamber but for me they are more lick a slap. They can kind of stun or score a point but they will not do an damage. So my point was they were new to me when I saw them and I was able to incorporate them into my fighting for specific sitations. I can understand your point about them being used as a jab to set up a spining heel kick or something. I have never seen them or expereinced them being used to set up a more powerful turning kick.
(End quote)


Flynch


I cannot argue about what you experienced as far as sparring with these WTF people, if this is what you observed this is what you observed so be it. I can offer you some possible reasons why these people were so inferior at sparring.

1. The school that they train is not good.
2. The students them selves are not good.
3. ITF schools do not spar full contact and these people are aware of this and are holding back, holding back so much, that they are leaving a bad impression.
4. If you or others are not wearing the traditional WTF sparring gear this would definatly cause them to hold back from putting any power into any of their techniques.
5. Because they may come from an inferior school they may simply be intimidated by your training, this would be a tribute to your school.

No matter, like I said I have experienced the bruises and a cracked rib from being kicked while sparring even while wearing the protector. These blows were delivered with the top of the foot! We also train to kick for SD, If wearing hard soled shoes we would use the toe of the shoe, very piercing blow, if not hard soled, like your self the ball of the foot.

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#424236 - 01/03/10 08:28 AM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: flynch]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote
No problem. Having an intelligent discussion is not starting a fight.

Yes you are correct it may not have been clear and it appeared less clear with your quote which is out of context.

End quote


Sorry you are correct; my quote from you was out of context no foul intended. I was only attempting to speak of those areas that I found debatable to me and shorten the quote. I have been reprimanded in the past for excessively long quotes.

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#424295 - 01/06/10 01:57 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: von1]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I have had the opportunity of training with WTF, ITF, Kickboxing and Muay Thai people. The one thing that stood out the most to me is that it did not matter what art was taught, the individual you spar with seems to adapt their art to themselves. Though their art may show one way and they may have some of that within their fighting style, their overall fighting was based on how THEY wanted to use it.

I came from a WTF system so both front legged kicks and rear legged kicks were taught; rear legged most definitely more so. Rear legged kicks ARE more powerful as there is more hip action and you are driving first your knee towards your opponent and then rotating the hips for the power; there is no question as that is scientific. And these most certainly can be done fast. However being from a WTF background I was more prone to the fast front legged kick like our ITF counterparts. I found if I sacrificed a power kick for something faster and more precise, that I may not inflict as much damage but I was more able to react and attack thus keeping my opponent more on their toes or less likely to overwhelm me. Plus while initial rear kicks are fast, as you get tired they slow down and are more predictable; in my opinion. This just proving that we each will adapt to what works best for us regardless of the system.

While I no longer train TKD as our school closed, many of my training partners still train at the local Kickboxing/Muay Thai school for stand-up fighting. They have found their years of experience with TKD have nothing bud aided them in this and are able to dominate many of their opponents with quicker movements, able to kick from father distances and using speed and technique to double up techniques and or jamming their opponents. And as they train more with these clubs they pick up more techniques to further aid them; thus changing their sparring styles some what.

WE as individuals are probably the more relevant aspect in sparring; more so then the art itself.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#424984 - 02/14/10 12:30 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: Dereck]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
I do thin that the kicks and the training techniques are different.

I learn different things and differetn training techniques from the recent Karate and Kick Boxing classes I have taken. I can say that there is a difference in the way the techniques are trained and in the appearance of the resulting techinique.

While I think that we could debate which method of training or which technique is better or more importantly is better for which body type. I would also suggest that the person trainning is the more relavant factor. The attitude, the work ethic, the athleticism, and while you better know it the difference in the technique is a factor but minimal in comparison to the person.

You could improve the quality of any martial art by simply getting people to train more and stay longer.

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#424997 - 02/14/10 11:13 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: flynch]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
I've never done anything other than TKD, but I have sparred with some karatekas, and they seem to focus more on hand techniques, while I used almost exclusively kicks.

I tried some light bantering with a kung-fu guy, and, while he could beat me in close combat, he could not do anything against my axe kick.

Just my little input.

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#425049 - 02/15/10 07:37 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: flynch]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello flynch:

Not being one of your airborne brethren (generic) as a technical matter I happily admire your particlar kicking technique. As a technical matter, I prefer to keep my feet on the ground at any opportunity. I have enough trouble standing up as it is grin All that is necessary is for the technique to land cleanly... they all hurt meaningfully if we practice them enough.

The problem with "sparring" is precisely what you mention; the banging of limbs. Done at a better-higher level of skill, I don't think there is much "banging" as there is damage caused.

Wrap me in enough protective padding/equipment and I won't care in the least what gets thrown by or at me. Remove all of that padding, and it will matter really quickly. Precision becomes important.

Merely my perspective I could surely be mistaken,
Jeff

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#425055 - 02/15/10 09:29 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: Ronin1966]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Well, with high-kicking techniques, you can in theory keep your opponent at bay, and, if he only had hand techniques, he can never come near you.

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#425072 - 02/16/10 09:05 AM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Well, with high-kicking techniques, you can in theory keep your opponent at bay, and, if he only had hand techniques, he can never come near you.
I would say that if someone had superior kicking ability, like Bill "Superfoot" Wallace, then this may be the case in tournament competition, depending on the rule set. However in the street, in actual combat, I would think that generally speaking, high kicking would be somewhat counter-productive, especially once the use of the feet has been displayed, jmo

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#425077 - 02/16/10 10:41 AM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
I've never been in a street fight, but I saw one many years ago in which a taller opponent did a spinning kick on his victim - that said, the kicker seemed to have the edge on the other guy at all times.

I think a wheel kick to the head can be very effective. And, if your opponent is several feet from you, a high flying kick can be psychologically intimidating.

That said, I agree that high kicks in general aren't practical, especially if you get older, which is why I'm relearning the hand techniques taught from my ITF days in the 1970's.

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#425088 - 02/16/10 04:01 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I agree with ITFunity. Spinning, jumping, and high kicking in a street fight are a very bad idea. For these reasons:

1) Adrenaline rush could cause you to slip and fall.
2) Your environment could cause you to slip and fall.
3) Your assailant might be trained and could catch your kick.
4) Your kicking skill may not be up to par with your over confidence.

As far as psychological advantage, I think your intentions and energy will be more intimidating than the actual technique you use. I mean lets say you decide to pull off a Jean Claude Van Dam jumping spinning heel kick. In my eyes its very pretty and not intimidating in the least.

Personally the only high kick I would ever use...if ever I would to use a high kick. Would be the inside crescent kick to the face. Or half moon kick. Sorry I don't know what it's called in Chang Hon TK-D

But in sparring I'd cut loose and use my arsenal of kicks because there's not much danger of getting hurt. Keeping your attacker at distance in sparring is possible where as in a street attack, you pretty much should just focus on escaping, attacking, and surviving.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#425089 - 02/16/10 04:55 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: TeK9]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
I would go with the Jeet Kune Do perspective - high kicks aren't practical, but keep them in mind, because you never know.

A crescent kick to the face can be very effective.

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#425099 - 02/16/10 07:52 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TeK9
Personally the only high kick I would ever use...if ever I would to use a high kick. Would be the inside crescent kick to the face. Or half moon kick. Sorry I don't know what it's called in Chang Hon TK-D
In ITF Chang hon or original TKD we only use a crescent kick for blocking. It is a defensive kick. The closest offensive version would be a vertical kick & that is performed both inward & outward. So I would say the most equal kick to what I think you guys mean would be for us, an inward vertical kick

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#425100 - 02/16/10 08:55 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
The ITF that I did used hand/arm blocks, not leg blocks. I consider the leg to be an offensive weapon, not defensive.

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#425103 - 02/16/10 10:36 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Taekwondofan you should resort back to the JKD perspective. There are no defensive moves really. However, they do have low line destruction's using the legs.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#425154 - 02/17/10 12:12 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
The ITF that I did used hand/arm blocks, not leg blocks. I consider the leg to be an offensive weapon, not defensive.
Please do not consider this an aatack, but kindly define the ITF you did?
One must understand that there are several ways to look at the ITF or original TKD. One thing is certain, the ITF syllabus as outlined in the 15 volume Encyclopedia of TKD written by Gen Choi contains several kicks that are for only defensive moves, aka blocking. For instance, crescent kick. There is also hooking kick which is also defensive, as are front & side rising kicks. However both of these rising kicks also have dual purposes for limbering up & stretching. There are also checking & waving kicks as well, all of the top of my head. I am sure I am missing a couple of more.
So at times, one's personal training experience may not accurately reflect the complete ITF training syllabus.
Added side note, while the 15 volumes is dated 1983, the previous textbooks dated 1972 & 1965 all contained defensive kicks

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#425168 - 02/17/10 05:26 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
I started learning TKD from one of the first grandmasters in ITF TKD; a few years later, when I went away to college, I took a few classes under another ITF master, not one of the original under Choi Hong Hi, and this one eventually went WTF. Then, several years after I graduated, I took a summer off and again practiced in an ITF school, but this time, I was an instructor.

I have studied under many masters during my studies and travels, and the final one, who gave me my 1st dan, is a WTF master.

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#425172 - 02/17/10 07:42 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
I started learning TKD from one of the first grandmasters in ITF TKD; a few years later, when I went away to college, I took a few classes under another ITF master, not one of the original under Choi Hong Hi, and this one eventually went WTF. Then, several years after I graduated, I took a summer off and again practiced in an ITF school, but this time, I was an instructor.
I have studied under many masters during my studies and travels, and the final one, who gave me my 1st dan, is a WTF master.
Then you must have studied under GMs Rhee Ki Ha or Hwang Kwang Sung or Park Jong Soo, as they were the only active ITF GMs he promoted to that level, unless you mean some of the older or other pioneers, who left the ITF over 25 years ago. They certainly could not be considered ITF by any active up to date standard today. Please elaborate if you can

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#425174 - 02/17/10 08:08 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
Close but no cigar - yes, he was one of the pioneers. What difference does that make whom I studied under?

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#425176 - 02/17/10 09:02 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
Close but no cigar - yes, he was one of the pioneers. What difference does that make whom I studied under?
No it makes no difference from a personal standpoint. I even added if you wanted to share that info.
Now here is my point: you speak about the ITF way, but to me, we have a different perspective of what the ITF is & what their training entails. Certainly someone who left the ITF fold has not been there for all the evolution, updates & changes over the years. So I am merely trying to determine a definition or concept of what we mean when we say ITF. It appears that we may have different outlooks on what the ITF is, which is fine, but does not always allow for a concise exchange of thoughts etc, no harm meant at all, sorry

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#425178 - 02/17/10 09:07 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: ITFunity]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
The last ITF place I went to was run by a goofball 8th dan, and that was well over a decade ago, so maybe my opinion is jaded.

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#425184 - 02/18/10 03:35 AM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
TaekwonDoFan Offline
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Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 271
OK, I reread your posts. The last goofball ITF grandmaster (so-called) tried to show how kicks can be defensive, but they just don't work. Kicking is offensive, and, to the extent that the best defence is a good offense, then, yes, a kick is defensive. But it is primarily offensive.

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#425214 - 02/18/10 10:21 AM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: TaekwonDoFan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Originally Posted By: TaekwonDoFan
OK, I reread your posts. The last goofball ITF grandmaster (so-called) tried to show how kicks can be defensive, but they just don't work. Kicking is offensive, and, to the extent that the best defence is a good offense, then, yes, a kick is defensive. But it is primarily offensive.
Not to be combative, but I do disagree, which is fine. 1st an ITF 8th Dan is only a master, not a GM, which is reserved for 9th Dan only. More importantly is that of course kicks with the legs & feet can be defensive. Why would someone limit their options?
What is your hands were held? If you were in a bear hug? Handcuffed? Carrying something too precious to drop? Or born with no arms?
While I think it makes commons sense that arms are better for blocking, one can never foretell every imaginable situation, so I would never rule out possibilities, as that does not make sense to me.
Waving kicks are very good, maybe the best for blocking or defending against certain low kicks, as are checking kicks. Ever hear of the Korean folk game TaekKyon? Gen Choi did, & that is a reason why he added foot technique sparring

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