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#409641 - 10/13/08 02:12 PM Differences in sparring
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
I usually spar ITF style but I don't have a side facing bouncing stance rather more of a boxing stance. I cover up alot, block and counter. Its comfortable, safe but its not really looked upon positively in the ITF club because its not really an open style of fighting.

Recently I've been going to a local kickboxing club were it seems they tend to fight more like me. The sparring seemed to be rigid with alot of blocking etc. It was just more close fighting with alot of short strikes and banging of limbs.

I then openned it up alot more like my ITF club does and moved more, took a side facing stance and used some of the faster/loser techniques and it really opened the sparring up.

The point I guess I am trying to make is that people put Tae Kown Do down alot and that is fine but I was in a situation were its fluidity/quickness came in handy. No sparring or martial art is the be all and end all but they all teach us different things thaty can be used in various situation. It is up to us to open our eyes and have the brains to know when to use the techniques.

My instructor said when he was younger he would go anywhere to learn from a good fighter. If he heard there was a good figher from a specific style he woulg visit them and see if he could learn from them and incorporate the techniques into his fighting regardless of their style.

Good words to train by.

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#424100 - 12/19/09 10:28 AM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: flynch]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Flynch

I found this old post; I cannot believe more people have not responded to it, nice topic.

I currently train WTF style sparing but there was I brief time where I trained ITF style. On a personal level I find the ITF type sparring feels more natural for me but the more WTF I train the more comfortable I become with it. I have discovered that mixing the two styles together is the best option for me. (One example) ITF front leg lead kick sets up a verity of very effective WTF kicks and techniques. Most WTF do not utilize the front leg like ITF would. Also many WTF techniques serve well to disrupt many ITF techniques, including many hand techniques. Itís the best of both worlds. There are a million other ways to blend the two together but that option does have its limits where competition is involved.

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#424101 - 12/19/09 01:55 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: flynch]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
I feel very much the same way Flynch. I am an ITF guy through and through, but spar with quite a closed, more squared-up style. I've been training for the last couple of years at a kickboxing club, and most guys assume I am a boxer strangely, because I use a lot of head movement and throw a lot fewer kicks than most guys.

I think I've got to the point in my sparring where I rely less and less on athleticism and "fancy" techniques, and more and more on experience and tactics. I like to "rough-up" fancy, technical fighters; I like to use finesse against athletic fighters and so on. The point is, how open your sparring is, or how many kicks you use compared to punches will depend for the most part on who you are fighting. It's no good simply declaring that somebody's style is bad, or worse than one's own, because it might just be kryptonite to someone else's style.

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#424105 - 12/20/09 05:11 AM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: Supremor]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
I forgot about this thanks for bringing it up.

Oddly enough I have been told that I look like a boxer as well. I just have my own thing maybe because I am larger but slower than most of the people I fight it just causes me to rely on covering up, jamming, and countering after taking a shot. Use alot of basic techniques off the lead front snap, turning and hand combinations.

The fancy stuff I learn for testing as a requirement but in sparring I try to keep it simple. Direct techniques that I can deliver with speed (well speedy for me), acuracy and power (power that will allow me to go through a block).

The individual I asked to be one of the sparring partners at my bb test (becasue he was senior, faster, and had better techniques) commented that I covered up well leaving little room to deliver an effective strike.

Thus works well in normal sparring but not so well when testing as I aways feel I have to push the action and then I leave myself open against the faster opponents.

So maybe my style is a reaction to the competion I used to face on a regular basis but it was nice to know that when required I could change it up.

I never gave much thought to WTF techniques before (not a comment on them just a reality) but after seeing their turning kicks which ITF might say were more angle kicks with little hip rotation I started to incorporate them into my training. (I also saw a karate guy teaching these) They are not as powerful but the sure get there in a hurry which is beneficial for me and the rear leg has enough power to make the opponent take notice.


Edited by flynch (12/20/09 05:12 AM)

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#424107 - 12/20/09 09:27 AM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: flynch]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
flynch
(Quote)

Never gave much thought to WTF techniques They are not as powerful but the sure get there in a hurry which is beneficial for me and the rear leg has enough power to make the opponent take notice.
(End quote)

I am not attempting to start an argument but it is a myth that WTF techniques are not powerful.


A more accurate way of stating this would have been,

They are not as powerful for (ME), because I do not train them as a WTF person would.

Believe me, I know, I train with these people and they deliver these blows with devastating, unimaginable power. Also many of these techniques are delivered with rotation of the hip. What you want to accomplish will determine weather one rotates the hip or not. Some times a technique is done to simply set up another and the need for power is mute, the power will be in what is coming.
Now if it is strictly Olympic type sparing than it is all about speed, but many WTF/most WTF, do not train strictly Olympic sparing, we train a combination of speed and power techniques.
All that padding is not a fashion statement it is for protection and even then we suffer bruised and broken ribs, concussions and other injuries, so yes these techniques can be delivered with extreme power.

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#424109 - 12/21/09 01:41 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: von1]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
No problem. Having an intelligent discussion is not starting a fight.

Yes you are correct it may not have been clear and it appeared less clear with your quote which is out of context.

I am generally referring to my performance of these kicks. So this is how they work for me not for others. Now to be clear I did learn these kicks by trainning with WTF black belts both local and from Korea (we are at a university and get exchange students, there is a WTF school as well but the quality of sparring is very low so those WTF that want to spar everyday come to our classes). That is for me when I throw a traditional ITF style turning kick rear leg with full hip rotation, through the target, contact made with the ball of the foot not the instep it is very powerful. When I do these modified (what I will call WTF) angle kicks there is little rotation they are somewhere between a front snap kick and a turning kick. The are fast as there is less distance and no chamber but for me they are more lick a slap. They can kind of stun or score a point but they will not do an damage. So my point was they were new to me when I saw them and I was able to incorporate them into my fighting for specific sitations. I can understand your point about them being used as a jab to set up a spining heel kick or something. I have never seen them or expereinced them being used to set up a more powerful turning kick.

I do not disagree with you that the kicks can be delivered with power I have heard this before but I can say that from the many WTF people that have come through our school I have just not seen it yet.

If your experience is different I only submit that we are constantly trying to get the WTF guys to rotate their hips, rotate on the ball of their supporting leg and kick through the target. If this was a one time thing then I would not mention it but it is fairly consistent.

We do train a little harder than most schools as even some ITF black belts only last a few classes.

So no arguement or offense just my personnal experience over about 5 years of trainning at this school and seeing maybe 20 to 30 different WTF students. I would be happy if you could provide links to any vidoes etc.

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#424122 - 12/22/09 10:07 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I think a turning kick is a turning kick. I see no difference in the styles. I think rather it is a difference in how you train AND how you wish to apply it. To me the most powerful turning kick is the one that uses the ball of the foot as the attacking tool. I have seen more than 7 boards broken using this and in the ITF WCs the power test in turning kick usually starts off at 7 boards, ending at times at 10. I am not sure what the world record is.

Now I would think that your typical WTF player would have a fast and very powerful turning kick, as that is what is needed to score. You must hit with power & the sparring rules dictate that you must be a fast counter kicker, as that is how you score. In ITF tournaments, since full contact is not allowed, I can only imagine that it would not always be trained in that fashion.
However truth be told, that when I see a great WTF player, I usually see an awesome roundhouse kicker

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#424129 - 12/23/09 09:25 AM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: flynch]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
(Quote)

I am generally referring to my performance of these kicks. So this is how they work for me not for others. Now to be clear I did learn these kicks by trainning with WTF black belts both local and from Korea (we are at a university and get exchange students, there is a WTF school as well but the quality of sparring is very low so those WTF that want to spar everyday come to our classes). That is for me when I throw a traditional ITF style turning kick rear leg with full hip rotation, through the target, contact made with the ball of the foot not the instep it is very powerful. When I do these modified (what I will call WTF) angle kicks there is little rotation they are somewhere between a front snap kick and a turning kick. The are fast as there is less distance and no chamber but for me they are more lick a slap. They can kind of stun or score a point but they will not do an damage. So my point was they were new to me when I saw them and I was able to incorporate them into my fighting for specific sitations. I can understand your point about them being used as a jab to set up a spining heel kick or something. I have never seen them or expereinced them being used to set up a more powerful turning kick.
(End quote)


Flynch


I cannot argue about what you experienced as far as sparring with these WTF people, if this is what you observed this is what you observed so be it. I can offer you some possible reasons why these people were so inferior at sparring.

1. The school that they train is not good.
2. The students them selves are not good.
3. ITF schools do not spar full contact and these people are aware of this and are holding back, holding back so much, that they are leaving a bad impression.
4. If you or others are not wearing the traditional WTF sparring gear this would definatly cause them to hold back from putting any power into any of their techniques.
5. Because they may come from an inferior school they may simply be intimidated by your training, this would be a tribute to your school.

No matter, like I said I have experienced the bruises and a cracked rib from being kicked while sparring even while wearing the protector. These blows were delivered with the top of the foot! We also train to kick for SD, If wearing hard soled shoes we would use the toe of the shoe, very piercing blow, if not hard soled, like your self the ball of the foot.

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#424236 - 01/03/10 08:28 AM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: flynch]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote
No problem. Having an intelligent discussion is not starting a fight.

Yes you are correct it may not have been clear and it appeared less clear with your quote which is out of context.

End quote


Sorry you are correct; my quote from you was out of context no foul intended. I was only attempting to speak of those areas that I found debatable to me and shorten the quote. I have been reprimanded in the past for excessively long quotes.

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#424295 - 01/06/10 01:57 PM Re: Differences in sparring [Re: von1]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I have had the opportunity of training with WTF, ITF, Kickboxing and Muay Thai people. The one thing that stood out the most to me is that it did not matter what art was taught, the individual you spar with seems to adapt their art to themselves. Though their art may show one way and they may have some of that within their fighting style, their overall fighting was based on how THEY wanted to use it.

I came from a WTF system so both front legged kicks and rear legged kicks were taught; rear legged most definitely more so. Rear legged kicks ARE more powerful as there is more hip action and you are driving first your knee towards your opponent and then rotating the hips for the power; there is no question as that is scientific. And these most certainly can be done fast. However being from a WTF background I was more prone to the fast front legged kick like our ITF counterparts. I found if I sacrificed a power kick for something faster and more precise, that I may not inflict as much damage but I was more able to react and attack thus keeping my opponent more on their toes or less likely to overwhelm me. Plus while initial rear kicks are fast, as you get tired they slow down and are more predictable; in my opinion. This just proving that we each will adapt to what works best for us regardless of the system.

While I no longer train TKD as our school closed, many of my training partners still train at the local Kickboxing/Muay Thai school for stand-up fighting. They have found their years of experience with TKD have nothing bud aided them in this and are able to dominate many of their opponents with quicker movements, able to kick from father distances and using speed and technique to double up techniques and or jamming their opponents. And as they train more with these clubs they pick up more techniques to further aid them; thus changing their sparring styles some what.

WE as individuals are probably the more relevant aspect in sparring; more so then the art itself.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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