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#409002 - 10/05/08 12:09 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: Yugen83]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"one is a method of Japanese character building (DO)"
well, i practice shotokan and we learn how to fight, the self defence stuff. so is it a "do" or a "jutsu"? both? who cares?

"but you must realize that practicing a budo involves studying budo, expressing budo, and ultimately becoming budo"
i'm sure you know people who have been training karate for a long time and completly miss the idea of budo, and there are even people in karate who are complete arse holes. the good people i know in karate were good to start with, and budo never made them better people with "stronger charactures". i don't think budo works like it's advertised.

"why bother going the budo route when you plainly disagree with budo?"
i like the physical technique of the style, so i learn that and pay lip service to the mystical crap. what we basically do in class is practice violence as a hobby, i've never been convinced that you can learn non violence through consistant practice of violence, imo.
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#409003 - 10/05/08 12:19 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: Yugen83]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"This represents a profound misunderstanding of the budo."
a profound misunderstanding of what you call budo maybe. i herd "budo" defined as being about death, and being at peace with your own unescapable death, and basically meeting it like a man when the time comes. so, i do practice a budo, but bowing to someone and using another language to name things isn't an integral part of it for me.

"Do you practice sport Shotokan?"
i have competed 3 times in 5 years of practice. its fun and a good ego stroke, but far from the main reason why i
practice.

"(Don't flame me - I am not suggesting that one is better than the other, just that they are different realms with different conventions)."
lol, im not flaming you. i guees what im trying to say is that there are more "realms" out there then the few used by karate circles.
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#409004 - 10/05/08 02:47 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

"Do you practice sport Shotokan?"
i have competed 3 times in 5 years of practice. its fun and a good ego stroke, but far from the main reason why i
practice.




I am not sure if he was specifically talking about competing. You can not compete and still practice sport Shotokan. You can also compete and not train in a form of sport karate. IMO its more about training methodologies and training practices. For example, do you point fight in trianing?
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#409005 - 10/05/08 05:37 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
at competetion we do Ippon kumite, not the WKF stuff, ITKF Ippon kumite is a bit different in design and purpose. we do train that in calss as well but we don't spend much time on it. more time is spent on partner work and application by far.

only about 5-10% of the people involved with the ITKF compete, so its hardly the goal of training. Shiai is a place where you can come and test your skills if you want.
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#409006 - 10/06/08 05:19 AM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: Yugen83]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
FWIW I am generally very suspicious of Westerners who emphasise budo. I do not find it fits well into Western culture but it appeals to some because it is exotic and appears to offer a life plan. When I practiced more conventional Shotokan, I came across hordes of people who styled themselves as budoka and revelled in elements of a pseudo-Japanese identity. Nor did I find that Japanese karateka were universal models of integrity ,some were, some were not, same as in the West. Some were pretty violent bullies and on a few occasions anti-Western racists who enjoyed the idea of hundreds of fawning Westerners bowing down to them but at the same time never believing they could physically match any Japanese or understand mystical budo (in an art less than 100 years old!)

I am with Student in that I believe you can practice Shotokan perfectly well for its physical techniques (and argue another day about whether they are the optimum techniques for defence or not) and just ride the cultural gloss borrowed from Kendo and Judo. Most Shotokan clubs claim they teach self-defence as part of the art so they see some practicality clearly.

Knowing a few Japanese over the years and having a passing acquaintance with contemporary Japanese culture and business, to non-karate practicing Japanese, the sight of Western karateka dilligently practicing what they believe is an expression of authentic Japanese culture is about as odd as an Englishman like me seeing Japanese people recreating English Civil War battles, as a few groups in the UK do, interesting but odd and hardly representative of British or English culture.

Ben


Edited by Barad (10/06/08 05:21 AM)

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#409007 - 10/06/08 01:12 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: student_of_life]
Yugen83 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
Quote:

"This represents a profound misunderstanding of the budo."
a profound misunderstanding of what you call budo maybe. i herd "budo" defined as being about death, and being at peace with your own unescapable death, and basically meeting it like a man when the time comes. so, i do practice a budo, but bowing to someone and using another language to name things isn't an integral part of it for me.




No, that's bushido - yet again, KNOW THE PRODUCT!


Quote:

"Do you practice sport Shotokan?"
i have competed 3 times in 5 years of practice. its fun and a good ego stroke, but far from the main reason why i
practice.




Understood, and glad that you enjoyed it.

Quote:

"(Don't flame me - I am not suggesting that one is better than the other, just that they are different realms with different conventions)."
lol, im not flaming you. i guees what im trying to say is that there are more "realms" out there then the few used by karate circles.




The "don't flame me" was specifically in reference to something that I said in that post alone that could've been taken out of context. Yes, there are more realms, and on a certain level I agree with you 100%, but Shotokan is a specific art with specific components and a specific purpose, and all were outlined by its creators. You take it as though it is me personally making these claims when I am merely just pointing out what the style is and what its creators intended it to be used for. It is not as though I am taking my personal opinion and throwing it in your face or trying to shove it down your throat. It is what it is, I didn't create it, I am just pointing out what it is.
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#409008 - 10/06/08 01:39 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: student_of_life]
Yugen83 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
Quote:

i practice shotokan and we learn how to fight, the self defence stuff. so is it a "do" or a "jutsu"? both? who cares?




You learn how to "fight", huh? Okay, I could blow this right out of the water, but I won't even begin to go there. Who cares? Well, for one, the people who actually know the style and are aware of what they are practicing and the creator's purpose behind that style care very much. Nobody is going to a "Do" to learn serious fighting, and nobody is going to a "Jutsu" to seek perfection of character. Nobody who knows what they're doing, anyways.

Quote:

i'm sure you know people who have been training karate for a long time and completly miss the idea of budo, and there are even people in karate who are complete arse holes. the good people i know in karate were good to start with, and budo never made them better people with "stronger charactures". i don't think budo works like it's advertised




No, I know many people who fall far short of the ideal of budo even though they practice budo. Everybody is human and nobody is perfect, but they accept it as a part of their training and at least try to follow it in some way as their overall journey through karatedo. If you are going to do something, do it all the way and cultivate all that it has to offer. Otherwise, don't waste your time or your instructor's time. Go 100% or go home.

Quote:

i like the physical technique of the style, so i learn that and pay lip service to the mystical crap. what we basically do in class is practice violence as a hobby, i've never been convinced that you can learn non violence through consistant practice of violence, imo.




So your karate is basically half-assed? It is all a part of your training because it is all a part of the style that you practice, which is the whole point. A lot of that stuff contains some valuable insights into the very style that you are practicing, it just happens to be communicated a little differently than what we are used to as westerners (which makes sense, seeing as how Shotokan is an Eastern martial art with an Eastern way of doing things, not Western). There are plenty of styles out there that eschew the "mystical crap" that you speak of and get right to the nitty gritty, so why not seek out something that is more in line with your own tastes? Why waste time on the "mystical crap" in the first place? You've never been convinced that you can learn nonviolence through the practice of violence? Well, you must've never heard of the saying "nobody hates war more than a soldier".
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#409009 - 10/06/08 01:51 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: Yugen83]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
first off, are you serisouly thinking im taking this personally? this is just a discussion, a honestly not a bad one.

"No, that's bushido - yet again, KNOW THE PRODUCT!'
the difference between budo and bushido is that one is ment as self cultivation, and the other is a way a service to another man or family thats leads to your death in service. also, there are no finite translations of these terms from japanese into english, what they imply has changed over the years and will continue. so i really see this as semtanics, what you call budo is not what i call budo or bushido. not really worth arguing over.


"It is what it is, I didn't create it, I am just pointing out what it is."
yeah, and i've already told you that i practice shotokan and i don't take it as a way of life. so with out all the budo stuff, how am i still practicing a budo? you do it one way, and i do it another, im not wrong so please stop telling me what shotokan is, because im currently studying shotokan and i have a good idea about what i want it to be.

no offence intended, im just saying that i don't practice shotokan the way 99% of shotokan guys do, but it's still shotokan.

i also question the use of bowing and use of japanese terms. some people think thats it's respectfull to learn the japanese culture if your learning a japanses art, and i don't. in the japanese culture its considered polite to bow, in the west we use a hand shake, they both imply respect, but neither garentees that i respect ther person im bowing to. so, when i think about it, why not call it a thrust punch, or shake your partners hand before you work with them?

some people also think that when you line up at the begining of class you the person who calls the rest of the line to kneel and bow to the front and such, should be yelling these things like a military command, they think it's "respectfull" and i'll ask how is yelling at someone to bow respectfull? if i can say it loud enoug for them to hear it, and they do it, how am i being disrespectfull? its a habbit of the system from its military days, nothing more or less.

i know that most shotokan people don't agree with me, and if my instructors knew how i actually felt about all the stuff we get on with in calss they might not like me so much, and i think thats a characture flaw of the person who judges me really. because i don't like yelling commands at people, and i don't like it when people call me sempai in class, my parents gave me a name, why not use that? i've actually asked people to call me "mark" and not to call me sempai, and most people won't do it. they are disrespecting my wishes in favor of "budo". how silly is that?

not to mention that there are little riturals that lots of shotokan dojo use that many don't, so are the ones who don't use them all disrespectfull? for example, when myt dojo started we had a silent bow to the front, and one to the instructor, and that was it. now we have thoes still and in addition we now bow a thrid time and we all say "domo aragato gosa masu" (not spelt right, but i don't care, lol) why do we add this now? were we heathens before? are we practicing a budo now that we have this thrid bow in class? maybe we should add more bowing? or maybe less? or how about a bow to all our dead relatives? and our cars for brining us to karate so we can train in the first place? see where im going? the set of rituals you practice in class, the language you use, the set of cultural behaviours you use don't make a row of beans as to what your actually doing. just because some people in japan called what we do a budo, dosen't make it so for ever. what did they call it before it was a "do", before "jutsu"?

you call something a "jutsu", but in days gone by in japan it was called "bugei", so which word do you want to use?
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#409010 - 10/06/08 02:10 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: Barad]
Yugen83 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
Quote:

FWIW I am generally very suspicious of Westerners who emphasise budo. I do not find it fits well into Western culture but it appeals to some because it is exotic and appears to offer a life plan. When I practiced more conventional Shotokan, I came across hordes of people who styled themselves as budoka and revelled in elements of a pseudo-Japanese identity. Nor did I find that Japanese karateka were universal models of integrity ,some were, some were not, same as in the West. Some were pretty violent bullies and on a few occasions anti-Western racists who enjoyed the idea of hundreds of fawning Westerners bowing down to them but at the same time never believing they could physically match any Japanese or understand mystical budo (in an art less than 100 years old!)

I am with Student in that I believe you can practice Shotokan perfectly well for its physical techniques (and argue another day about whether they are the optimum techniques for defence or not) and just ride the cultural gloss borrowed from Kendo and Judo. Most Shotokan clubs claim they teach self-defence as part of the art so they see some practicality clearly.

Knowing a few Japanese over the years and having a passing acquaintance with contemporary Japanese culture and business, to non-karate practicing Japanese, the sight of Western karateka dilligently practicing what they believe is an expression of authentic Japanese culture is about as odd as an Englishman like me seeing Japanese people recreating English Civil War battles, as a few groups in the UK do, interesting but odd and hardly representative of British or English culture.

Ben




It is not so much that I emphasize budo, it is more along the lines of - if you practice a budo then it is part of the total package and it is an indispensable part of your training. It doesn't fit well into Western culture, but guess what? You are practicing an Eastern martial art that was meant for practitioners within the Eastern cultural sphere. It doesn't need to fit into Western culture. You are coming to Karate, not vice versa. It wasn't created for us, and it wasn't created with us in mind. When you take something from another culture, you are adopting that culture, in a way. I see what you mean about the Japanophiles, though. It is as if they worship everything that is Japanese, Japan is their religion. However, there are plenty of level-headed people who follow the budo and subscribe to its ideals and they do just fine.

As far as styling oneself as a budoka, well, if you practice Karate you are a Karateka, if you practice a budo you are a budoka, see what I'm saying? Shotokan is a budo, so you would be a Karateka and a budoka. I have never really thought of the budo as being something mystical, and I have never seen it presented as something mystical in the serious schools that I have both trained in and had the pleasure to visit. It is merely a culture and a way of doing things, no better or worse than any other way, imo. It is an integral part of what you are practicing, though.

A lot of people claim a lot of things, doesn't mean that it is so. A lot of TKD schools claim to teach reality based self defense, but they really don't - they teach some weird disjointed "self defense" techniques that would only get you killed (and most TKD players would agree), but like you said, that is another thread.

A lot of people take things way too far and become fanatics. This applies to not only Japanese culture, but everthing in life. I have Japanese relatives who were born and bred in Japan and according to them, they see the attempts of Westerners to participate in their culture as flattering (except for the Japanophiles, they see them as annoying and retarded). I guess it all depends on the level of fanaticism, some follow the budo in moderation and some go over board with it. The latter are akin to the extreme anime fan types out there. Let's not forget the impact of romanticism within Western thought, too. I believe this accounts for a lot of the over board types out there, as this same exact behavior is very prevalent within many Western activities (Dungeons and Dragons, anyone?). It is a case of Westerners projecting their own culture onto something foreign that was never meant to be interpreted through that culture.
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#409011 - 10/06/08 02:20 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: Yugen83]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"I could blow this right out of the water, but I won't even begin to go there."
don't bring up that shotkan practioners can't use their art to fight, its not worth your time to deal with all the "flaming" that would follow, lol.

"Who cares? Well, for one, the people who actually know the style and are aware of what they are practicing and the creator's purpose behind that style care very much."
why does what i do have anything to do with anyone else? if they i'm defilking "their" art because i don't do it all then thats their problem, not mine, lol.

" Nobody is going to a "Do" to learn serious fighting, and nobody is going to a "Jutsu" to seek perfection of character"
i told you a few times now that just because someone calls what i do a "do", dosent mean that it is. it's intended use is what i intended to use it for. funikoshi is dead, and i can do what i want with what i know.

"Nobody who knows what they're doing, anyways."
your funny.

"If you are going to do something, do it all the way and cultivate all that it has to offer. Otherwise, don't waste your time or your instructor's time. Go 100% or go home."
i would arguee that you are limiting what fighting arts have to offer by using very limiting terms like "do" and "jutsu". i do train 100%, thanks for implying that because i don't give a darn about the dojo kun that i don't do real karate.

"So your karate is basically half-assed?"
yeah, thats exactly what i said...

"It is all a part of your training because it is all a part of the style that you practice, which is the whole point."
the dojo kun, and the niju kun are not a part of every dojo. not every dojo recites them after class, so you go ahead and call every one who doesn't use these things regulary in class half asseres, see how far you get with that.

"There are plenty of styles out there that eschew the "mystical crap" that you speak of "
more then we could count.

"so why not seek out something that is more in line with your own tastes?"
the only thing in town is TKD and shotokan, and i made my choice. until i go somewhere that gives me access to judo again, im with shotokan.

"You've never been convinced that you can learn nonviolence through the practice of violence? Well, you must've never heard of the saying "nobody hates war more than a soldier". "
is war a "do" or a "jutsu". now, this might blow your mind, but if you can learn peace from war? then is it a stretch to learn peace through practice of what you call a "jutsu"?

basically, you are not able to say that shotokan IS a "do" because not every one practices it as one. and if they don't do it they way it was "intened" they are not wrong, or half assed. the initial intention of a style is nothing. just one mans idea of what he wanted done. i can garentee you that what ever art you practice your not practicing it as it was intended to. tell me i'm wrong, i've herd that before, but i'm usually not far off.
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