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#408992 - 10/04/08 02:19 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: Barad]
Yugen83 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
Or maybe, being a "DO" and not a "JUTSU", Shotokan was never really intended to be a serious fighting method despite the desire of its practitioners to believe otherwise. The 20 Precepts would certainly suggest that.
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#408993 - 10/04/08 05:06 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: Yugen83]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"Or maybe, being a "DO" and not a "JUTSU", Shotokan was never really intended to be a serious fighting method"

bahahahaha

your grouping all shotokan dojo into one training paradigm, like its a way to make a point or something. my karate is a serious fighting method, its no more a way of life as video games is. its a hobby and not a religion.karate is weird no matter if its japanese based or the all mighty okinawan method.

"despite the desire of its practitioners to believe otherwise"

bahahahaha


"The 20 Precepts would certainly suggest that."

out of everything funakoshi wrote, i like this the best:
"War is a tool God gave man to organize the world."
that seems to sum it up well. budo dosen't outline the way for me.

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#408994 - 10/04/08 07:13 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: student_of_life]
Dobbersky Offline
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 892
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Sorry to hijack this thread for a moment

As this is an active Shotokan thread I have a question to ask.

I own the Sensei Kanazowa's 3 disc set and I wanted to know why are shotokan kicks done with your arms out by your sides thus giving zero protection for your upper body?

I mean this in a respectful way and please would you answer so I will understand.

Thanks and sorry again for hijacking this thread

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#408995 - 10/04/08 08:58 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: student_of_life]
Yugen83 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
Quote:

"Or maybe, being a "DO" and not a "JUTSU", Shotokan was never really intended to be a serious fighting method"

bahahahaha

your grouping all shotokan dojo into one training paradigm, like its a way to make a point or something. my karate is a serious fighting method, its no more a way of life as video games is. its a hobby and not a religion.karate is weird no matter if its japanese based or the all mighty okinawan method.

"despite the desire of its practitioners to believe otherwise"

bahahahaha


"The 20 Precepts would certainly suggest that."

out of everything funakoshi wrote, i like this the best:
"War is a tool God gave man to organize the world."
that seems to sum it up well. budo dosen't outline the way for me.






No, Shotokan is "Karatedo" and not "Karatejutsu", which is why I stated that. *I* am not grouping anything, as I am not the one who created Karate or came up with those two conventions. I was speaking more towards the original intentions of the one who created Shotokan (or who is given credit, anyways). Yeah, to each his/her own, and you practice the way that you choose to practice, you certainly won't get any argument from me as that is a "you" thing and not a "me" thing. The point I was trying to make is, it would be nice to understand the original intention of the style and its conventions so as to not be disappointed if that style ultimately fails at doing what one tries to make it do as opposed to what its creators designed it to do and intended for it to do. Kind of like, know the proper context of the product in question and don't get it twisted, sort of thing. If budo doesn't outline the way for you, then why exactly are you practicing a BUDO to begin with ? That's like saying I don't do dairy products but I am on a diet that is dairy-heavy . Again, know the product and what it entails.
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#408996 - 10/04/08 09:03 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Yugen83 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
Quote:

Sorry to hijack this thread for a moment

As this is an active Shotokan thread I have a question to ask.

I own the Sensei Kanazowa's 3 disc set and I wanted to know why are shotokan kicks done with your arms out by your sides thus giving zero protection for your upper body?

I mean this in a respectful way and please would you answer so I will understand.

Thanks and sorry again for hijacking this thread






I would reckon that it is for training and balance purposes. When I learned how to kick in Shotokan, we did the same thing during our line drills - arms out and to the sides for balance. As we became more advanced, our kicks were done in a fighting stance during line drills. I am guessing that this is the case in the Kanazowa (Kanazawa?) films?
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#408997 - 10/04/08 11:48 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: Yugen83]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
The arms down in kicks is, as far as I understand it, an isolation exercise; just as your arms swing counter to your legs in running, counterbalancing your kick makes it stronger ('every action has an equal and opposite reaction).

Personally I think it grooves too much of a bad habit...
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#408998 - 10/04/08 11:54 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: Yugen83]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
9 times out of 10 when you hear someone use the terms "do" and "jutsu" they imply a "jutsu" is more effective because of what ever reason. you sai it yourself: "shotokan was never ment to be a serious fighting method" semantics.

"If budo doesn't outline the way for you, then why exactly are you practicing a BUDO to begin with?"
because i'm not japanese, my cultural belief structure is fine on it's own, with out the dojo kune, and the niju kune, and any other rule that was made by the samurai and got poorly translated, understood and used out of context.

you can still learn the techniques of the system and fight with them.
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#408999 - 10/04/08 11:58 PM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
sometimes at gradings for lower level kyu ranks, they are asked to do the kicks with the arms down at the sides so you can see the proper "pendulum" action in the hips, used to generate power in front kicks.

you can see hip action if the arms are in a fighting stance too, but with the arms our of the way i guess it helps more.
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#409000 - 10/05/08 04:59 AM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: student_of_life]
Yugen83 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
Quote:

9 times out of 10 when you hear someone use the terms "do" and "jutsu" they imply a "jutsu" is more effective because of what ever reason. you sai it yourself: "shotokan was never ment to be a serious fighting method" semantics.

"If budo doesn't outline the way for you, then why exactly are you practicing a BUDO to begin with?"
because i'm not japanese, my cultural belief structure is fine on it's own, with out the dojo kune, and the niju kune, and any other rule that was made by the samurai and got poorly translated, understood and used out of context.

you can still learn the techniques of the system and fight with them.




I wasn't trying to imply that one was more effective than the other, just that the focus and the intentions were different - one is a method of Japanese character building (DO), and the other is strictly for fighting and nothing else (Jutsu). One is designed and optimized specifically for combat while the other is designed more to emphasize the teaching and cultivation of certain cultural practices and intangibles that are not entirely combat focused. More effective? I think they both are effective in addressing what they were designed to address in the first place. Neither is inferior to the other, they each have their own purpose and goals and these must be taken into account when bringing up the subject of effectiveness. The "Do" is not about winning or losing, it is about character development, so it is effective at accomplishing this task. The "Jutsu" is not about perfecting one's character or any other pseudo-religious conventions, it is about the science of combat and training specifically to improve one's combat efficacy, and again, it is effective at accomplishing this task. Both "Do" and "Jutsu" are equally effective at accomplishing their designed tasks. The point is those tasks are different. A "Do" was never meant to be serious fighting method because if it was then it would've just remained a "Jutsu" so that it could focus strictly on that area and forego the trappings of the "Do". If you choose to take this as me implying that something is inferior or ineffective then I don't know what to tell you because that is not what I am trying to imply at all. I am trying to say that they are different and have different purposes, but they are equally effective in their own way and both get the job done. They just happened to be designed to do two different jobs.

You completely missed the point in my questioning of your reasoning behind practicing a budo when you don't personally subscribe to the idea of budo. You may not be Japanese, but what you are practicing certainly is! You are not Japanese but your art and its conventions are Japanese and both teach and express the ideas of budo. Your personal beliefs and conventions may very well be just fine, but you must realize that practicing a budo involves studying budo, expressing budo, and ultimately becoming budo - that is the whole point of a budo, which is why I find it so baffling that someone would participate in such a thing when they clearly don't want to be part of what it entails. You don't need a dojo kun, but guess what, as a practitioner of a budo, it comes with the territory and is an indispensable part of the training. Throwing these things out would be "bad" budo, and in a funny kind of way, it touches on the topic of the thread. Hmmm, it is like training in a sport-only style and rejecting the conventions and ideas of competition and what it all entails. The point of me asking the question was to highlight the fact that there are other styles that would be right up your alley and better conform to your views and standards than a budo, so why bother going the budo route when you plainly disagree with budo?


Edited by Yugen83 (10/05/08 04:59 AM)
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#409001 - 10/05/08 05:36 AM Re: Not THAT Shotokan!!! [Re: Yugen83]
Yugen83 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
Quote:

you can still learn the techniques of the system and fight with them.




This represents a profound misunderstanding of the budo. Do you practice sport Shotokan? If so then I can better understand where you are coming from and the whole budo thing becomes null and void because you are not practicing the art, but rather the sport and that is something else entirely (Don't flame me - I am not suggesting that one is better than the other, just that they are different realms with different conventions).

Now, the OP was about "good" Shotokan. To explain "good" Shotokan we must first define what Shotokan is. Shotokan is KarateDO and it is a Budo. Therefore, "good" Shotokan would theoretically be Shotokan that is practiced in a way that is true to its KarateDO and Budo roots and conventions. Physically speaking, "good" Shotokan would be Shotokan that is fast, explosive, powerful, straight-line, low to the ground, plenty of "pop" to the techniques, efficient movements with no wasted motion, and excellent use of tai sabaki (sorry no video ).
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