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#408647 - 01/25/09 01:31 AM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Cord]
drgndrew Offline
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Registered: 01/09/05
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G’day Cord,
Quote:

Q. When is an attacker not an attacker? A. When they dont attack
.
If he was attacked at all it would be a start.
.
Can you show me one piece of that footage where the instructor was actually attacked? You know, punched, grabbed, kicked?.....How about one piece of footage where anyone even attempts to do any of those things?
.
All they did was move into range to recieve his techniques. Unless we are due a wave of 'Complaint Uke Muggers from Mars' then this is not a reality.
.
And the instructor wouldnt have been able to hang on to that guy for so long if he had fought back realisticaly, not just went along with.
.
The instructor would also have had less time to try eye gouges etc if he was actually defending himself from strikes from the standing attacker
.
It purports to be based in reality, yet shows attackers not attacking. I have never seen a situation play out like that in my entire life.






note: I’ve cut and pasted your comments into one quote, mainly to stop me waffling on too much ….. yeah it’s true, I tend to do that. .

It seems the main complaint you have for this video is that the attackers do not attack realistically.

Fair enough I can’t argue with that, I agree there should have been a little more intent (ok maybe a lot more) on the attackers part.

All I can do is offer an explanation as to why, chances are they had not done much scenario training before, it is very likely that they just hadn’t had experience at being a bad guy. Remember this was an Introduction Seminar not an advance one.

I’m sure you would appreciate the difficulty in playing a bad guy role realistically if it isn’t in your nature or you simply don’t know haw a bad guy acts, these guys are trained bullet men they were simply seminar participants.

Now I don’t know if this was the actual reason behind the lack of realism on behalf of the attackers, I wasn’t there and I don’t know the guys. But it is a common occurrence with relatively new participants to scenario training. Some may have experienced being a victim but that doesn’t automatically transmit to understanding what the bad guy did. Others have limited exposure to violence so may based the acting on unrealistic examples such as movies.

I’ve seen this all with my own students at first. Some of them just can’t play “good” bad guys, others pick it up relatively quick the point is there is a learning curve for the attackers in a scenario, My guess is that these guys where at a fairly early stage of their learning curve.




Quote:


Quote:

guys throws a hay maker the attacker evades, but wait a sec thats wrong because if he did that against someone throwing a front kick it would work.....Well Duhh!!!




No kicks or haymakers were thrown in that clip.




Your right mate, I meant the above as a separate example of how the "if he was attacked differently then what he did wouldn't work" argument

Quote:

Quote:

From your background you should know that this is how these things start




Things much be different in OZ



No mate violence is pretty universal world wide, though there are cultural differences.

What I meant was that you should know that violence doesn’t just happen, that there is a “story” behind the violence. It has a lead up, the attacker often is trying to make the victim give him a reason to go physical. That’s the whole purpose behind the “What you looking at” approach. Scenario training enables a better transition of training into the story line


Edited by drgndrew (01/25/09 01:34 AM)
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#408648 - 01/25/09 02:18 AM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Kimo2007]
drgndrew Offline
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G'day Kimo


Quote:

My thoughts are RBSD have always been they spend too much energy on saying TMA doesn't work,



No it's more like TMA gets put out by the fact RBSD points out where they are lacking, with regards to real world self defence. Admittedly there are those who bag TMA as useless and degrade it, I am not one of them nor are the people I recommend, in fact most have a substantial TMA background (myself included). But I'm not going to get in to a RBSD v's TMA debate. each have different priorities and goals and thus have different methods of achieving them.

Quote:

and ignoring the foundation resulting is some fairly poor fighting abilities.


I don't see how RBSD ignores foundations, most of the RBSD guys that have been into it for a while are actually very good fighters but RBSD isn't about producing fighters we produce survivors.

Quote:

Most of these schools focused on drawing on high levels of intensity because they believe in the heat of the moment it's ugly anyway.
Quote:



are you saying we are wrong, have you watch youtube at all

lets just agree to disagree, but I honestly believe you have a misaligned view of RBSD

Quote:



Reality? I have never in my life seen anything go down like that. People like to say "it's not going to look like kata" as if fights will always be this wild out of control event. Maybe, if you not any good at it. I mean sure it's possible things might degrade into a sloppy brawl. But if you are a well trained MA, know how to keep your wits about you and are aware of your surroundings, there is a very good chance should have to do anything, it will be quick, clean and over in an instant.

No promises, anything can happen. But the MA's I know who have actually been in altercations, myself included, have been pretty clean affairs for the most part.




so what your saying some one who is better trained will perform better ..... well OK I agree with that. but what about the everyday person

Quote:


Sorry to those who train under this style of training, I just don't think by and large they do a very effective job.





so it is more effective to make a person train for 2 or three years before becoming competent to defend themselves.

Hmmm I would have thought it more effective the other way around give the student usable skills and a blueprint on what to expect and then develop greater abilities over time.

Quote:


Too many holes and the instructors tend to rely to much on being tough guys, and not enough on applicable technique.




too many holes?? where?? you need to meet more RBSD instructors and not rely on the odd clip or comment on the forums. not enough applicable technique we only teach applicable technique.

Dude the exact same crap can be said about MA,


Quote:


Now I am sure there are good programs out there, but I can only speak to what I have seen and the people I have worked with and my experience has not been very good.




Then maybe you should seek out these good programs and stop judging an entire movement based on your admitted lack of experience and hearsay.

Sorry If I come across a little annoyed at you Kimo, It's just that I am so p'd off at being lumped into this BS stereo type of RBSD. I have studied many RBSD systems and frankly the typical comment made about RBSD is complete and utter [censored].

We know there is no quick fix, but there are quicker ways. we do not neglect technique, we are not thugs and we are not fight clubs. the majority of RBSD instructors that I have had the pleasure of interacting with are nothing like what is betrayed by misinformed "experts". They see a clip and judge the entire system and movement based on their interpretation of that clip. It 's the old "it doesn't look like my stuff so it is crap" syndrome.

RBSD is more concept based then technique based (this does not mean we ignore technique) techniques are fixed movements concepts are principles that can be applied with a variety of technique or even a poor technique. combat is chaos and concepts allow the flexibility required to incorporate the very rigid technique.

Vent over

Kimo, Please don't take offense mate, I don't mean to specifically direct this little spit at you it is at the entire incorrect stereotype that the inexperienced apply to RBSD.
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#408649 - 01/25/09 02:36 AM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Olderman]
drgndrew Offline
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Registered: 01/09/05
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Quote:



I am of the old school. I don't think there is a quick fix.




And niether do the majority of RBSD instructors. there is no quick fix, but there are quicker ways to provide usable skills to a person.

Quote:


Sure people can be shown something and they might have some success with it if the person who attacks them isn't too good.




It is amazing how understanding the BEP of real violence, the behavioural emotional and psychological components of violence, can even up any deficiency in physical skill. I have seen it again and again, with my students and via my research.

Quote:


But I think in the end it will come down to technique training.




Being technically perfect means squat if you can't apply it in the real world. Again becoming familiar with the BEP of an attack (and attacker) allows this to happen. you have heard stories about Black Belts having their butt handed to them by relatively untrained thugs, it is the influence of BEP that provided the defeat not the superior technique ( and yes I have actually seen this happen, though I may be the only one who has actually seen it first hand, mostly it's a friend of a friend that witnessed it....anyway)

Quote:


How would a person who has no experience learn to use that training ?



the same as with any learning endeavor; they are taught, they experience, it the observe it, etc

Quote:


Well there are seminars run here by Geoff Thompson and the likes.
A person still has to be able to do something.



every one can do something, in fact every technique you really need to be able to defend yourself you learned before your first day at school, and have constantly reinforced them since then.

Quote:


That something is technique training, fitness and conditioning.




these are not requirements for a person to be able to defend themselves. my god yes they help, but you only have to look at the thousands of cases across the world where untrained people have fought off larger stronger attackers. there are even cases that involve a MA trained attacker, yet the untrained victim fought them off.

Quote:


So I am afraid for effective S/D training its a mixture.




No these are not required to effectively defend yourself, they do however allow you to better defend yourself.

Quote:

No short cuts I am afraid.




No but there are quicker ways.
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#408650 - 01/25/09 02:41 AM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: drgndrew]
drgndrew Offline
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Registered: 01/09/05
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Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
I think I've covered everyone

I need a break , does any one have any 2" pine boards.
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#408651 - 01/25/09 12:40 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: drgndrew]
Olderman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 51
Quote:

I think I've covered everyone

I need a break , does any one have any 2" pine boards.




Looking at that video there were a few people attending the course.
That means some people need something.
If I were an instructor I still think I would have influenced some of those people in a none pressured way to
train and drill some basics.
Something simple like the jab? open or closed hands?
But I am not an instructor nor do I want to be one.

Thinking out loud here!!

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#408652 - 01/25/09 01:51 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: drgndrew]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
A few points I'd like to make, if I may:

Quote:

That’s the whole purpose behind the “What you looking at” approach. Scenario training enables a better transition of training into the story line





Not wanting to turn this into a semantic discussion, so if it appears I'm picking at your words, I apologize. But I don't think that scenerio training offers a 'better' way at all, merely a different one. Both TMA and combat sports offer methods of becoming aware of imiment attacks, or aggresive behavior.

Quote:

No it's more like TMA gets put out by the fact RBSD points out where they are lacking, with regards to real world self defence.




I understand that you don't want to getting into a TMA vs. RBSD debate, so sorry if I'm going there, but...I think it would help to better define terms here. It really does depend on the 'TMA' being studied, doesn't it? Just like RBSD can be defended by suggesting that there is a lot of crap out there, and that one shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water, I think the same is true for TMA. The simple fact is that a lot of the techniques taught come directly from TMA. Although it is true that RBSD can provide help extracting those techniques that have more 'real world' applicability, the fact is that the long term student of good TMA should also be versed in these techniques, and be able to seperate those techniques in the system that are meant for the street from those that are most surely not. For this reason, I don't feel it is accurate to characterize TMA as being lacking in the kind of self defence skills RBSD promises to ingrain in the trainee.

Quote:

I don't see how RBSD ignores foundations, most of the RBSD guys that have been into it for a while are actually very good fighters but RBSD isn't about producing fighters we produce survivors.




I'd like to approch the first half of this sentence. I don't want to leap to judgement on RBSD as a whole, because I'm sure there are many out there that do train the foundation. However, I think that the marketing and promise that many RBSD schools and gurus make is for a rapid gain in self defence skills. The very nature of this makes it so that basics are often overlooked, and in place of them is the scenerio training that is the hallmark of RBSD.

Now, I think this makes sense from a commercial standpoint. After all, the scenerio training is what attracts folks to RBSD to begin with. But I also think it is fair to say that the majority of RBSD schools out there (that is, if their marketing is accurate), promise a rapid development of s.d. skills, and that usually that means forgoing the basics. I've seen numerous adds that promise taking a trainee from zero to have effective self defence skills in a weekend.

What this tends to produce is people with good command of the theoritical aspects of violence, but without the (imo) needed skill base to apply a technique should they need to. I think that the video posted shows this quite well.

From a personal perspective, I don't think any of those people should have been bothering with scenerio training. What they should have been doing was focusing on basic combative skills. The problem is that they are inputting into their muscle memory far from perfect technique application (even in a free style sense), and personally I think that this could be detrimental in the long term, as they will have to unlearn many of the behaviors highlighted in this video.

Further, as you say Drew, the scenerio itself suffered from a major flaw, that being the attack was in no way realistic. I think this could have been avoided had those attacked had a good foundation of skills, because as it stands the poor attacks have the effect of undermining the entire drill.

Quote:

so it is more effective to make a person train for 2 or three years before becoming competent to defend themselves.





Honestly, I would say yes. I think the question here is can these skills be gained quicker than 2-3 years? Maybe, if the actual basics are drilled repetively, and the student attends class very often. But by and large I think 2-3 is not off the mark for the development of good self defence skills.

Quote:

Hmmm I would have thought it more effective the other way around give the student usable skills and a blueprint on what to expect and then develop greater abilities over time.





Again, the question is, 'How usable are the skills?'.

Let's take Karate as an example, well a karateka should also have basic striking skills developed in the first few months of training. I believe this whole line of thinking does not take this into account. Although TMA or combat sports may branch out from the basics, that basic skill is still developed. As a matter of fact, I would offer that this comment you have made can also sum up nicely the kind of training done at most dojo's.

Quote:

too many holes?? where?? you need to meet more RBSD instructors and not rely on the odd clip or comment on the forums. not enough applicable technique we only teach applicable technique.

Dude the exact same crap can be said about MA,





I agree that it can be, and that's why these discussions are so often fruitless.

However, going off genearality's here, I think that instructors and students should be taken in isolation of each other. As you say, most instructors do have training in a system that provides a foundation of technique. The student do not. I can see this being a potential problem. That is, unless the students also learn that skill set.

So if they do need to learn that skillset, what is it about RBSD that acts like a fast forward button, so that the skill set is learned faster than in other arts, or combat sports?

Quote:

Sorry If I come across a little annoyed at you Kimo, It's just that I am so p'd off at being lumped into this BS stereo type of RBSD. I have studied many RBSD systems and frankly the typical comment made about RBSD is complete and utter [censored].





Drew, I'm not going to lump you in with others, so this is a general comment. But I don't think Kimo's view is that off base here: it the one that is engendered through the marketing of much of the RBSD instructors. You have guys like Wagner suggesting that in a weekend you will go from learning basic self defence, to knife and gun disarming, to how to defend yourself against a dirty nukes, car bombs, etc. What I'm saying here is that there might be a reason why this is the typical response to RBSD...because there are a lot of seemingly bogus claims made by some of the top instructors out there in order to make a quick buck.

Quote:

We know there is no quick fix, but there are quicker ways.




There might be quicker ways to understanding the theory behind violence, and I think in this RBSD is ahead of many training paradigms. But I also feel that there is pretty set amount of time for the average person to develop basic skill in striking and clinching (usually about 6 months to a year of focus on these aspects). I so far have seen or read nothing that leads me to believe that RBSD can develop these skills any faster.

Quote:

RBSD is more concept based then technique based




So should be classical martial arts.


Quote:

techniques are fixed movements concepts are principles that can be applied with a variety of technique or even a poor technique.




Again, from my experiance this also holds true for TMA. When I was a bouncer, I applied many Aikido techniques far less than perfect, but always got a good result from them. Many times I did not even seek to apply any technique on a person, but rather apply a principle. I think that this mindset is definately attributed to my TMA learning.

All that being said, I can understand why someone wouldn't want to train TMA (but that is a whole other thread). My point here is not that TMA is better than RBSD, my point is that good training is good training, and that we should forget the labels. People should choose that teaching style which best suits them personally and feel lucky that there are so many options availible.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (01/25/09 01:51 PM)
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#408653 - 01/25/09 04:03 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Ames]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

All that being said, I can understand why someone wouldn't want to train TMA (but that is a whole other thread). My point here is not that TMA is better than RBSD, my point is that good training is good training, and that we should forget the labels. People should choose that teaching style which best suits them personally and feel lucky that there are so many options availible.

--Chris




OH YEAH BABY!!! CAN I GET AN AMEN!!!

But can I add that, no matter what path you choose, the training must involve application of resisting, living breathing, unpredictable sparring.

All the 'BEP' (god, I swore I would never type that ) replication is designed to help people cope with the fear of being physicaly attacked, but, if, in class, they become familiar with being struck, and come to feel accustomed to pain through controlled contact, then there is less debilatating fear to face outside- its a known quantity, and the volume of the distraction it creates quietens considerably, allowing you to read the situation with clarity. It doesnt take special training to keep a distance from someone shouting at you, nor does it take a great deal of experience to know when someone is a real physical threat- its instinctive.
It does take a lot of training to make every shot count, to not get panicked or 'blinded' by punches coming at you/landing, and to keep balance in mind and body when the chips are down.
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#408654 - 01/25/09 08:07 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Olderman]
drgndrew Offline
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Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:


If I were an instructor I still think I would have influenced some of those people in a none pressured way to
train and drill some basics.
Something simple like the jab? open or closed hands?
But I am not an instructor nor do I want to be one.

Thinking out loud here!!




Clive does just that Mate. BTW Clive isn't seen in the actual Scenario he is the dude pretending to be the bar tender at the very beginning, and that was simply to provide a starting point

Clive is actually a very big promoter of Sport based delivery systems he has a Judo, Boxing and Muay Thai (among others) Background. and his regular training does resemble a MMA type session.

please don't fall into the trap of thinking that RBSD is only scenario training and that we don't care about developing skill in technique. Scenario training is only one tool that we utilize, there are may , many drills, and we do still do pad and bag work to improve skill, power speed etc
some schools even have "normal Sparing" though personally I prefer (for self defence) to incorporate the "sparring' into a behavioural context. for eg, fights don't actually start in a fighting stance in reality (unless they are pre-arranged which is no longer self defence), check out the online cctv footage if you don't believe me, (I'm sure Cord and Gav will confirm this.) so instead of starting our sparing from a fighting stance we will start it with a behavioural context (a scenario if you like) because this is how it happens in the real world. the goal of our sparring isn't so much to defeat the attacker but to escape the attack.

of course not all schools do it this way.
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#408655 - 01/25/09 10:56 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Ames]
drgndrew Offline
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Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
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G'day Ames
Quote:


Not wanting to turn this into a semantic discussion, so if it appears I'm picking at your words, I apologize.




No need to apologize mate. Clearing up semantics leads to better understanding.

Quote:

But I don't think that scenerio training offers a 'better' way at all, merely a different one. Both TMA and combat sports offer methods of becoming aware of imiment attacks, or aggresive behavior.




I honestly believe it is better then anything else offered by TMA or sport MA (in general) that I have come across, and I have done considerable research, but I may have missed something and I'm always open to better ways.

Could you give me examples of how "TMA and combat sports offer methods of becoming aware of imiment attacks, or aggresive behavior" and how they are better or on par.


Quote:

It really does depend on the 'TMA' being studied, doesn't it? Just like RBSD can be defended by suggesting that there is a lot of crap out there, and that one shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water, I think the same is true for TMA.




I full on, 100% agree, and I may be guilty of over generalising, but when discussing a topic that has so many different “way” you nearly have to be general.

Quote:


The simple fact is that a lot of the techniques taught come directly from TMA. Although it is true that RBSD can provide help extracting those techniques that have more 'real world' applicability, the fact is that the long term student of good TMA should also be versed in these techniques, and be able to seperate those techniques in the system that are meant for the street from those that are most surely not.




I agree my view is to provide it the other way around, in the long term I believe that an RBSD student and a TMA student SHOULD be on par (providing the TMA is Street effective, many are not), It’s the beginner to novice part, the first few months that are different. Where as the foundation of TMA is primarily technique based (instead of saying in general all the time, assume I am taking generally) the foundation of RBSD is primarily Behavioural and application. As I see it TMA provides a strong technical foundation on to which to build self-defence ability. RBSD provides self-defence ability to which technical foundations can be added. (I’ll post a separate post explaining My personal approach to RBSD which may explain why I can disagree and agree at the same time.)


Quote:

For this reason, I don't feel it is accurate to characterize TMA as being lacking in the kind of self defence skills RBSD promises to ingrain in the trainee.




in the long run I agree (again providing the TMA is a street effective system) in the short run I disagree.

Quote:


I don't want to leap to judgement on RBSD as a whole, because I'm sure there are many out there that do train the foundation. However, I think that the marketing and promise that many RBSD schools and gurus make is for a rapid gain in self defence skills. The very nature of this makes it so that basics are often overlooked, and in place of them is the scenerio training that is the hallmark of RBSD.

Now, I think this makes sense from a commercial standpoint. After all, the scenerio training is what attracts folks to RBSD to begin with. But I also think it is fair to say that the majority of RBSD schools out there (that is, if their marketing is accurate), promise a rapid development of s.d. skills, and that usually that means forgoing the basics. I've seen numerous adds that promise taking a trainee from zero to have effective self defence skills in a weekend.




OK I agree. I do not count those who market RBSD with such lines as “ beat anyone with one move”, defeat a three hundred pound man in 3 seconds”, “learn the secrets that other MA instructors don’t want you to know”, learn secret military techniques not shown to civilians” and so on and so on, as being RBSD.

To use the term often associated with TMA they are Mc’RBSD schools.

I don’t include these “schools” under banner of RBSD, just like I don’t include the TMA equivalent under the TMA Banner



Quote:


What this tends to produce is people with good command of the theoritical aspects of violence, but without the (imo) needed skill base to apply a technique should they need to. I think that the video posted shows this quite well.




I have to disagree here dude, RBSD does provide usable techniques, In fact we don’t include any techniques that can’t be used under the stress of real violence, the scenario-based training provides the tool (one of many) to the application of the techniques in the real word.

Ok the video isn’t the best representation of that. But the scenario is just an intro to scenario training, (a demo), it was probably focused on one or two particular concepts of multiple attackers; passive stance, de-escalation, angling, shielding, pre-emptive striking, and so on the exaggeration of some of these things (such as the shielding) could be for instructional purposes Ie to show where it is, when to do it etc. it might not be (I wasn’t there) it could have just sucked in some places. Though having witnessed a fair amount of scenario training with newbies, it isn’t an uncommon type of effort. To be improved on by all means that’s the point…. stuff up in training to reduce the stuff up for real.


Quote:


From a personal perspective, I don't think any of those people should have been bothering with scenerio training. What they should have been doing was focusing on basic combative skills.




That’s what they are doing mate just from a behavioural perspective rather then a technical one., but fair enough it ‘s not apparent in this vid (it is only 1.15 minutes)

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problem is that they are inputting into their muscle memory far from perfect technique application (even in a free style sense), and personally I think that this could be detrimental in the long term, as they will have to unlearn many of the behaviors highlighted in this video.




Muscle memory deteriorates with stress. That’s one reason you see people throwing wild punches when they have been trained to throw tight. It’s not needing to unlearn but learning new better ways.

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Further, as you say Drew, the scenerio itself suffered from a major flaw, that being the attack was in no way realistic. I think this could have been avoided had those attacked had a good foundation of skills, because as it stands the poor attacks have the effect of undermining the entire drill.




True, but these guys are probably fairly new to being bad guys. They will no doubt improve with practice. And yes a “good Bad guys makes a big difference.

Think about this if you where put into the checkout position of a major supermarket with very little training (ie here are the basic keys, here is what you should expect), you would be able to still operate the register and serve customers but you are not going to be able to perform like a seasoned operator. Three days later with still no extra training you are going to be performing much better then your first day, but you are still not going to be as good as an experienced op.. The point being we can’t expect people to be able to perform like real bad guys when they aren’t like that.

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so it is more effective to make a person train for 2 or three years before becoming competent to defend themselves.





Honestly, I would say yes. I think the question here is can these skills be gained quicker than 2-3 years? Maybe, if the actual basics are drilled repetively, and the student attends class very often. But by and large I think 2-3 is not off the mark for the development of good self defence skills.




See I don’t believe that, there is a quicker way, via specialisation.

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Hmmm I would have thought it more effective the other way around give the student usable skills and a blueprint on what to expect and then develop greater abilities over time.





Again, the question is, 'How usable are the skills?'.



Very usable, the basics are condensed easy to learn and natural to perform under stress, we don’t learn technique and then learn application we learn both at the same time concentrating on application, technique can be perfected over time. In the mean time even bad technique can be effective if it can be applied.

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Let's take Karate as an example, well a karateka should also have basic striking skills developed in the first few months of training. I believe this whole line of thinking does not take this into account. Although TMA or combat sports may branch out from the basics, that basic skill is still developed. As a matter of fact, I would offer that this comment you have made can also sum up nicely the kind of training done at most dojo's.




Same mountain different path.

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However, going off genearality's here, I think that instructors and students should be taken in isolation of each other. As you say, most instructors do have training in a system that provides a foundation of technique. The student do not. I can see this being a potential problem. That is, unless the students also learn that skill set.




You are spot on Ames, and this is very much the position I take. I am very much into an individual difference approach to instructing. Every one is different, and although there are some common themes that we all share training should be tailored to an individual and his/he/it’s specific reality. (that is what I see as the R in RBSD)

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So if they do need to learn that skillset, what is it about RBSD that acts like a fast forward button, so that the skill set is learned faster than in other arts, or combat sports?




Ok basically we strip down the skill set to include only a few/couple of techniques that are easy/quick to learn, natural and effective under stress. (eg palm heals, hammer fists), we provide a familiarisation with the behavioural aspect of violence for ( how the attacker initiates the attack, predator behaviour etc), and we drill the techniques under the condition similar to what is likely to be experienced by the person.

You don’t need to have perfect technique and you don’t need to have more then a couple of techniques, all that matters is being effective and being effective is not being technically perfect. For eg you don’t need to drill a hammer fist 1000’s of times for it to be effective in the street (the drill makes it more effect yes)

Go get a five year old and tell them to hit you as if they are trying stab you with a ice pick grip. That is all that is needed for defence (as far as technique skill goes), show them where to hit (two or three basic effective targets (eg eyes/face throat groin etc note these aren’t specific to the hammer fist and are targets for ant impact tool). now show them how to recognise and control the pre-fight lead up. (note. a five year old would have more difficulty understanding this section but I don’t believe full RBSD training should be given to young kids at least not the way it is for adults (different realities different threats).

The knowledge is enough to improve your chances of successfully defending your self, but combine it with application under similar and progressively more realistic scenario types that are realistic to the person for eg you would be wasting time setting a scenario in a busy pub for a tea totaling priest)

Using this approach you can very quickly provide effective ability to any one. Now I am not saying that in 1 lesson you can have a person with the self defence skills to match a Black belt, but you can provide them with the self defence skills to effectively fight off a likely attack (remember there reality is being catered for not every reality)

My personal approach is one of first bringing to the surface and enabling a person to use there natural defensive and offensive abilities (most of which we learn and develop well before kindergarten, some before birth) these are our in build instinctual defence mechanisms that have evolved over the life time of our species and even before we became human.

I show how to use these and provide an understanding of how violence occurs (particularly taking into account the person reality/lifestyle etc).

From there I modify the natural defences to be more tactically sound, Include some of the basic strikes to add tactically to the natural repertoire. From there we built upon that base.

Note this is a brief explanation of my approach and is not meant to represent RBSD in general.



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Drew, I'm not going to lump you in with others, so this is a general comment. But I don't think Kimo's view is that off base here: it the one that is engendered through the marketing of much of the RBSD instructors. You have guys like Wagner suggesting that in a weekend you will go from learning basic self defence, to knife and gun disarming, to how to defend yourself against a dirty nukes, car bombs, etc. What I'm saying here is that there might be a reason why this is the typical response to RBSD...because there are a lot of seemingly bogus claims made by some of the top instructors out there in order to make a quick buck.




Jim’s (Wagner) material is rather good, But I fully understand the advertising/marketing thing. It may very well be different outside of OZ. RBSD is still very young down here, where as in The UK and the US it is at least 10 years older and far more wide spread.

It’s very possible that I simply haven’t been exposed to as much as this type of marketing, it may also be that I tend to filter it out. I still get annoyed at the general stereotyping of RBSD as typical to this type of marketing, but hey I’m willing to see why it has gained such a reputation. (se my Mc RBSD comment previously)

OK I agree. I do not count those who market RBSD with such lines as “ beat anyone with one move”, defeat a three hundred pound man in 3 seconds”, “learn the secrets that other MA instructors don’t want you to know”, learn secret military techniques not shown to civilians” and so on and so on, as being RBSD.

To use the term often associated with TMA they are Mc’RBSD schools.

I don’t include these “schools” under banner of RBSD, just like I don’t include the TMA equivalent under the TMA Banner





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All that being said, I can understand why someone wouldn't want to train TMA (but that is a whole other thread). My point here is not that TMA is better than RBSD, my point is that good training is good training, and that we should forget the labels. People should choose that teaching style which best suits them personally and feel lucky that there are so many options availible.

--Chris



I’ll yell Amen to that too,
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#408656 - 01/25/09 11:01 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Cord]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

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All that being said, I can understand why someone wouldn't want to train TMA (but that is a whole other thread). My point here is not that TMA is better than RBSD, my point is that good training is good training, and that we should forget the labels. People should choose that teaching style which best suits them personally and feel lucky that there are so many options availible.

--Chris




OH YEAH BABY!!! CAN I GET AN AMEN!!!

But can I add that, no matter what path you choose, the training must involve application of resisting, living breathing, unpredictable sparring.

All the 'BEP' (god, I swore I would never type that ) replication is designed to help people cope with the fear of being physicaly attacked, but, if, in class, they become familiar with being struck, and come to feel accustomed to pain through controlled contact, then there is less debilatating fear to face outside- its a known quantity, and the volume of the distraction it creates quietens considerably, allowing you to read the situation with clarity. It doesnt take special training to keep a distance from someone shouting at you, nor does it take a great deal of experience to know when someone is a real physical threat- its instinctive.
It does take a lot of training to make every shot count, to not get panicked or 'blinded' by punches coming at you/landing, and to keep balance in mind and body when the chips are down.




Bep Is a little more then just the fear aspect , but I won't go into it I'm sure you guys are sick of reading my posts by now.

Specialised training is required for specialised results, in essences it is the specialisation that speeds the process.

Ok thats me for a few days Catch you later my friends
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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