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#408637 - 01/24/09 09:22 AM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Gavin]
Olderman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 51
Quote:


Like many Doorman I really loved Geoff Thompsons early work and heard the message that to survive you need to be able to punch, kick, grapple, fight with weapons AND be able to do it hard' and I also heard the message that you need to train everyday with top quality people to become 'world class'. Learn to jab properly then drill and drill it until you can fire it off without thinking. Learn to throw by drilling and drilling until that becomes an attribute you can use should the need arise. That is the only way to learn self defense, it is from a position of skill and strength that people gain confidence and that takes time and hard work. .






Agreed and I believe Jeff Thompson got this strategy from his former mentors.
Rep after rep after rep. Put on the decent music not the crappy music. Its going to be a long laborious session.
Quote:



I believe that the guys on that and virtually all of the seminars I've seen would be better off enhancing their natural attributes down the gym than they would going on these sorts of seminars




I suppose people have to see the light. In that by attending these and other seminars they realize there is no quick fix.
So they train harder. Then attend seminars. When something is offered that they would need.

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#408638 - 01/24/09 10:04 AM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: drgndrew]
Olderman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 51
Quote:

Hey guys How many actual RBSD seminars or training sessions have you attended.






Reality Based Self Defense.
Reality, there is an interesting word.


If it is reality and the scenario is a pub then I would have thought using a pub setting would be realistic. Either hire a pub ( guy who owns it might be strapped for cash)
put in some typical pub weapons e.g plastic glasses, bottles,something soft that could said to be an ash tray.
Is smoking banned in Oz pubs?
Soft furniture and some mats and do some pure this is how fights occur in a pub routine and do what ever defensive measures you think would work against unarmed or armed people.
Or set up a pub setting in a gym.

Quote:


how many real life encounters have you been involved in, and how many of those did you do exactly the same as the complaints leveled at this video.




A few.
Quote:



RBSD is not Martial arts, and trying to make it look like it just doesn't work.




Personally I wouldn't be looking for a difference. Martial arts should mean lots of reps, running, conditioning and hard graft.(Work)
Drilling workable techniques until they are automatic.
Regardless where they come from so long as they will work and have the desired effect.
The application in say S/D in pub setting well with your soft weapons pub the applications could be worked out or if they are already available and being taught they could be practiced and improved up on.
Quote:


Martial arts try for perfection,





Well it is a nice mental feeling when techniques become second nature, they work and are usable to the best of that persons ability. Just takes a lot of time , graft and is never ending
Quote:



RBSD realize that perfection does not exist in the real world.




I think it can or at least as perfect as an individual person can make something work at that given time. I would agree applying a technique to a given scenario would have to take in to account improvisation.

Quote:


there's nothing wrong with aiming for perfection but there is something inherently wrong with criticizing anything in the real world that is not perfect.




So why not make it so it is as perfect to that persons ability at that given time?
I suppose it is levels. Crap technique fighter attacking trained person should mean (I do state should, because I don't think everything always goes to plan) trained person does ok.
Training technique should be one thing. Real application is another. Then the two meet? Or something along those lines.

Practitioners of a style of karate fought some Thai boxers and then changed their training methods and some techniques after the bouts.

Adapt and improvise or so the actors in films state.

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#408639 - 01/24/09 10:06 AM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: drgndrew]
Olderman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 51
Is RBSD good business down under?

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#408640 - 01/24/09 12:06 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: drgndrew]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Sorry Cord but where in the video did you hear anyone instructing the attackers not to attack the defender, if the attackers did not capitalise on openings then that is the attackers fault for what ever reason. Now the attackers may not have been as experienced at being attackers (they were after all seminar attendants), But I can assure you they were not performing with the indent to make Jim look good or any other such BS.




Q. When is an attacker not an attacker? A. When they dont attack

Quote:

So what your saying is basically if the attackers acted differently then what they did and Jim still did exactly what he did it would have ended differently ......[b} Well Duhh!!




Can you show me one piece of that footage where the instructor was actually attacked? You know, punched, grabbed, kicked?.....How about one piece of footage where anyone even attempts to do any of those things?
All they did was move into range to recieve his techniques. Unless we are due a wave of 'Complaint Uke Muggers from Mars' then this is not a reality.

Quote:

The attackers didn't take advantage of some openings (for what ever reason), if they did then those openings would have been dealt with.




Show me.

Quote:

man I have to giggle at arguments that basically say "if he was attacked differently then what he did wouldn't work". it's worst then the what ifs, at least you can use what ifs to build a scenario the if he was attacked differently argument is just plain pathetic.




If he was attacked at all it would be a start.

Quote:

guys throws a hay maker the attacker evades, but wait a sec thats wrong because if he did that against someone throwing a front kick it would work.....Well Duhh!!!




No kicks or haymakers were thrown in that clip.

Quote:

From your background you should know that this is how these things start




Things much be different in OZ

Quote:

In reality it wouldn't have made it to 50 seconds.




On that we can agree, but for different reasons.

Quote:

The attackers wouldn't be just getting up and starting again would they, if they were knocked down with helmets I would bet they would be less willing to get up and have another go if they weren't wearing them.




And the instructor wouldnt have been able to hang on to that guy for so long if he had fought back realisticaly, not just went along with.
The instructor would also have had less time to try eye gouges etc if he was actually defending himself from strikes from the standing attacker

Quote:

OK thats my argument for the video, if you honestly think it is crap then so be it, but at least judge it on what it is and in context.




It purports to be based in reality, yet shows attackers not attacking. I have never seen a situation play out like that in my entire life.

Quote:

I would like for you guys to post an example of what You consider to be "Good" Reality Based Training, that can be reproduced with in a budget.




You have to pay Ukes to try and hit you back in Oz?!?!
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#408641 - 01/24/09 12:33 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Cord]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
My thoughts are RBSD have always been they spend too much energy on saying TMA doesn't work, and ignoring the foundation resulting is some fairly poor fighting abilities. Most of these schools focused on drawing on high levels of intensity because they believe in the heat of the moment it's ugly anyway.

BS. I have to agree with Cord, this person made several major errors, including poor use of angles (they were squared up on him). He let them get way to close, if they actually intended to hurt him they were often well inside striking range.

Reality? I have never in my life seen anything go down like that. People like to say "it's not going to look like kata" as if fights will always be this wild out of control event. Maybe, if you not any good at it. I mean sure it's possible things might degrade into a sloppy brawl. But if you are a well trained MA, know how to keep your wits about you and are aware of your surroundings, there is a very good chance should have to do anything, it will be quick, clean and over in an instant.

No promises, anything can happen. But the MA's I know who have actually been in altercations, myself included, have been pretty clean affairs for the most part.

Sorry to those who train under this style of training, I just don't think by and large they do a very effective job. Too many holes and the instructors tend to rely to much on being tough guys, and not enough on applicable technique.

Now I am sure there are good programs out there, but I can only speak to what I have seen and the people I have worked with and my experience has not been very good.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#408642 - 01/24/09 06:59 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Kimo2007]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Wow I didn't realize how long my posts were until I had to scroll through them to get to the new ones.

If you guys did actually read them all then I thank you if you didn't then I don't blame you.

My next replies will be more concise .... well I'll try
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#408643 - 01/24/09 09:01 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Gavin]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
G'day Gav, I didn't see you post yesterday sorry for not replying to it.

Thank you for relaying you r experience in RBSD.


From what I read your RBSD was very Bouncer oriented and GT like. This approach is great for the alpha type male. I don't want to take anything away from GT's work he is a pioneer of RBSD. however his approach wasn't really idea for the average (or less then average person).

It seems that in the UK the RBSD scene is very much door oriented, nothing wrong with that as door men are the front line when it comes to dealing with violence. but door men are not really reality. Not to the average person. if you have had a long stint on the door then you will have (or will have developed) a aptitude that is very much in line with GT's approach (early approach I should say). you will be able to make this approach work, but the majority of people can not pull it of.

I can not imagine a 5'2' shy young lady being able to do the type of RBSD you describe. now I ask Who is more in need of the the SP training those who seek out the type of RBSD you provided or those who couldn't handle it.

one thing I'd like to clarify is my earlier comment that Bouncers or not really reality. when I re-read this I could feel all the door man out there singing in unison "are you saying what we face isn't real". no that's not what I mean.

How ever the BEP (I knew I couldn't last too long with out mentioning it) of a bouncer V's attacker differs from that of a victim v's attacker. the people bouncers face are fighting differently to when they pick a patron. the approach is different and the tactics are different. in many ways the guy taking on the bouncer will be more committed to the attacker and more determined, they are fighting for different reasons.

Drilling to be able to throw automatically is fine, but it is pretty pointless drilling a technique if you have no blueprint or experience in delivering the strike in conjunction with the BEP of the situation. this is were many Technique Perfect ( well as close to it) TMA-ist come undone on the street. They have not performed under the BEP conditions of real world violence, it's like swimming by learning to perform the strokes on land. this is where Scenario training comes into it is the Number one most effective way to link the training to the real world.

P.S. not implying drilling should be abandoned, just that it should be accompanied by some sort of catalyst for the real world (In my opinion, the best catalyst is progressive scenario training, I've look at other methods and scenario training still comes out on top, again not saying the others don't have their place).

.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

Top
#408644 - 01/24/09 09:57 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Olderman]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
G'day Olderman ( exactly how much older are you

Quote:



Reality Based Self Defense.
Reality, there is an interesting word.




your right but it is the easiest term to describe what we do.

Now here is my personal view of what reality means in this context.
It is how violence happens in the real world, that is specific for the reality of the individual.

eg a navy seals reality is different to that of a teenage shop assistant, which is different from a bouncer, which is different from, an office worker etc etc etc.

RBSD , in my view is an individual thing because everybody has a different reality. we all see the same bowl of fruit but from a different angle.

Not everyone shares my view.

Quote:


If it is reality and the scenario is a pub then I would have thought using a pub setting would be realistic. Either hire a pub ( guy who owns it might be strapped for cash)
put in some typical pub weapons e.g plastic glasses, bottles,something soft that could said to be an ash tray.
Is smoking banned in Oz pubs?
Soft furniture and some mats and do some pure this is how fights occur in a pub routine and do what ever defensive measures you think would work against unarmed or armed people.
Or set up a pub setting in a gym.





Mate you are 100% correct, and as you progress through the scenario work each of these things can be added to increase reality and up the variables.

The video you posted is AN INTRODUCTION to scenario training. as such it had few variables and was ...well ...basic.

just like any training tool we start basic at a beginner level and we increase the intensity (in this case the reality) more and more.

To be honest a beginner is going to benefit more by starting out with a realistic scenario but with fewer variables, and building up to a replication scenario.

How is KATA taught, usually only a few steps at a time, how is Kumite trained, it is in a progressive manner adding difficulty until full contact sparring is reached, you don't jump straight into full contact (well not if you have a responsible instructor).

just like Kata and sparring and gym and fitness work, scenario training starts basic easy if you like and then progresses to provide greater challenge.

A new student thrown into a full blown scenario with all the bells and whistles, would simply be too overwhelmed to actually benefit from it, much the same as a newbie thrown straight into FC sparring.

We also must remember the cost of making scenarios more realistic. now if we replicated the inside of a pub for this scenario complete with music furniture, smells etc etc then you can imagine the extra costs (plastic cups, maybe chair hire etc) but more importantly there is a major cost in time and convenience. Most scenarios only last a minute or so imagine the set up time, and hassle needed to build such an accurate representation of every environment that is used as a base in scenarios.

Like I said you are 100% right, what you describe is far more realistic then what was shown on the video, but its a difference between basic and advance, cost and benefit


Quote:


how many real life encounters have you been involved in, and how many of those did you do exactly the same as the complaints leveled at this video.




A few.
Quote:



RBSD is not Martial arts, and trying to make it look like it just doesn't work.




Personally I wouldn't be looking for a difference. Martial arts should mean lots of reps, running, conditioning and hard graft.(Work)[/quote}

But this is not a requirement for self protection, this is proven by the greater then chance number of untrained, smaller and weaker "victims" that have fought off a larger attacker

Plus not every one has the time to do this, if they do then I say go for it, it provides substantial long term skills and abilities. (I'm not discounting the effectiveness of this type of training, the results speak for themselves. it's not for everyone)


Quote:


Drilling workable techniques until they are automatic.
Regardless where they come from so long as they will work and have the desired effect.



yep but scenario training enables a more concrete transition from training the reps to perform in the real world. THE BEP of violence does have an effect on the persons ability to deliver under real circumstances, scenario training provides the link.


Quote:


The application in say S/D in pub setting well with your soft weapons pub the applications could be worked out or if they are already available and being taught they could be practiced and improved up on.





which is what scenario training does




Quote:




So why not make it so it is as perfect to that persons ability at that given time?





Who say's we don't, RBSD (at least how I look at) is about providing real world self defence skills to everyone as quickly as possible, that is our primary concern. improvement is a natural follow on from that heres where you drill you shots, but we are still concerned with reality it is useless to have a perfect technique if it falls to pieces in a real go.


All in all Olderman I think we pretty well agree, I just tend to shout out for the beginner and Mr/s under average NOW as opposed to them after significant training. I am an advocate of high reps drilling etc but My first concern is to get the student to a level of ability as quick as possible and then build upon that. RBSD to me should concentrate on the first step not the end result (if that makes sense) were as MA tends to do it the other way around.

Same mountain different path.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#408645 - 01/24/09 10:00 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Olderman]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

Is RBSD good business down under?




NO WAY DUDE

If you want to make a small fortune then start with a very large fortune and open up a RBSD club.

RBSD is still very young down here, its focus tends do be more Civilian oriented then security and military. but there is a good mix of all three it's just small but slowly growing.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

Top
#408646 - 01/24/09 11:52 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: drgndrew]
Olderman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/09
Posts: 51
Me? Older.

I am of the old school. I dont think there is a quick fix.
Sure people can be shown something and they might have some success with it if the person who attacks them isnt too good.
But I think in the end it will come down to technique training.
How would a person who has no experience learn to use that training ?
Well there are seminars run here by Geoff Thompson and the likes.
A person still has to be able to do something.
That something is technique training, fitness and conditioning.
So I am afraid for effective S/D training its a mixture.

No short cuts I am afraid.

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