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#408627 - 01/23/09 11:25 AM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: drgndrew]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Sorry, but that clip is a text book example of how to look good in a seminar, nothing else.

Issues.
1. His fence is good, I have no problem with that, but he could have used better angles to prevent both attackers being square on to him at the time of pre-emption. Passive 'players' could have been used as a bar crowd to facilitate this.

2. The strikes dont look hard because they arent. Fencing is about controlling range as well as buying time. All he would have done is annoy them- a lot.

3. The idea of the 'human shield' is all well and good, but it doesnt look like that
The shield struggles, drops to his knees, grabs on, tries to bite, spits, headbutts, and this is regardless of you trying to poke him in his eye.
The attacker obstructed by his passive 'shield' in this clip has several chances in range to land clean punches to the defenders jaw- he took none of them, merely closed distance and waited to be dealt with- if you get attacked like that, then lucky you.

Just another 'MA's are awesome' clip where someone walks away without a scratch.
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#408628 - 01/23/09 11:49 AM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Cord]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Sorry, but that clip is a text book example of how to look good in a seminar, nothing else.




Exactly which part of that clip did anyone look 'good'? I could not honestly see any discernible skill in that clip whatsoever. No skilled delivery system from which to attack or defend on, abysmal footwork, terrible use of space (does Oz have bars the size of football fields? He back peddled more distance than most people run marathons) ), pitiful striking, grappling on par with your average unskilled untrained drunk and well, that was the good stuff. Why anyone would pay to 'learn' how to do that? I'm utterly amazed....
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#408629 - 01/23/09 05:54 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Gavin]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Quote:

Sorry, but that clip is a text book example of how to look good in a seminar, nothing else.




Exactly which part of that clip did anyone look 'good'?




Sorry Gav, should have clarified as the old chestnut of showing an 'expert' taking out multiple guys without incurring as much as a bent fingernail.
Like i said, if you get attacked like that, then lucky you, but it never happened to me- everyone seemed to try much harder to hurt me than those guys- maybe it was my face or something?
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#408630 - 01/23/09 09:01 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Olderman]
drgndrew Offline
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Registered: 01/09/05
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G'day All,

All of the above comments are fair.

What we must remember though, is that this is a training exercise. No single scenario will ever be able to account for every "what if".

Yes in a typical pup there would be furniture, there would be other people, maybe load music, security and a whole lot of other variables. But this is a situational scenario not an environmental replication. Think of all the different environments that a self defence situation can occur in and then think of all the variations within each environment. it is impossible and impractical to try to replicate every environment exactly.

This is a basic scenario of a situation, that could occur, the idea is to be able to integrate and combine your training (including deescalation, physical and disengagement) into a given situation. in this situation the parameters where more open, it is a basic level training aide, as the student becomes better at applying the concepts then more variables can be introduced, for e'g furniture and other "obstacles" can be introduced, limitations to working area etc. Like any training aide you don't chuck the new student into the deep end, you work up to it.

This training is very much concept based and not technique based, hence you will always get people complaining about lack of technique etc.

As for when to strike, as Olderman said, that is up to you and is an individual thing, as is the strategy chosen. Avoidance is king and in this situation Jim tried to avoid violence by deescalating only after he exhausted the attempt did he pre-empt a resort to physical action.

we do not know the Goal of the scenario it may have been to de-escalate if you can.

As for the awareness items mentioned in Oldermans post, he is spot on but there is no way of knowing whether Jim took these into account of not, he is wearing a helmet so no one can say where he was looking, that fact that he circled around would have allowed him to see "friends".

Quote:



That is the first couple of seconds.
Two people are walking towards him, they enter his space, they touch and push him.
He has allowed that.
CCTV in those pubs?
That is the first part within a few seconds where a hard conditioned strike (isnt that why people spend hours doing massive amounts of reps) from Jim could have been justified in the courts.




Maybe, maybe not, it would be much easier to prove self defence in Jim's case after the deescalation, there is no real prove that Jim is in danger in Oz we must use reasonable force, and it could be argued that knocking someone out for entering you space and touching you is not reasonable. his actions are far more justifiable in court then such an early pre-empt.

You mention that the other "could have hit him".... but he didn't, in these situation the attacker is looking to justify his violence, Jim didn't give that too him. personally I would advocate making a serious attempt to de-escalate prior to premature pre-emption (I wonder if there is a pill for that..viagro anyone )

Quote:

Personly I would have let the other persons hand begin to
be outstretched.
I would not have allowed him to make contact.
Then it would be I am out of here or do I have to fight my way out.




Kind of what Jim did wasn't it, contact was made he tried to de=-escalate and when that failed he fought his way out. you just would have gone physical earlier. (again not my preference but it is your choice, if you honestly feel that that was the appropriate action then you are right)

{quote]As regards talking people down in that situation and given the circumstances I wouldnt have even bothered to attempt it.
If the two were sat down and telling me then maybe I would attempt to discuss why I should be there but there again I would have more than likely not bothered given they could have been drunk.

From verbal begginings all sorts of things can occur.




This is your preference, and although I don't entirely agree I respect that. RBSD training (in particular Clive's) teaches you How to deal with the verbal beginnings if youcan prevent it going physical then isn't that better then just learning how to deal with the physical??


Please don't judge an entire system or instructor on only 1min 15sec's of footage. This is just one example of a fairly basic scenario. It is impossible to account for all of the "what ifs". what ifs are a great way to add to scenario but should never be used as a argument against one. for every situation there will be what ifs that prove it wrong (either real or simulated), the thing is most of the time the what ifs aren't presented so obviously they weren't defended against for eg the two attackers didn't have friends if they did the the scenario would have unfolded differently, there was no obstacles and there was room to move. Judge the scenario on the whats, not the what ifs.

One other thing before I post on Cords reply, is to remember when watching scenarios (especially via video footage) is that we have the advantage of being able to see the whole situation unfolded, we are looking on from a distance and we have the advantage of being able to think about whats happening from a kind of detached hindsight perspective.


It is very different to be in the scenario as it unfolds, having to make decisions on the spot etc, thats the purpose of them, mistakes will be made and thats why it is vitally important to contact a breakdown and analysis of what happened .

Perfection in reality is a myth.

Edited to add. The reason for mentioning he was a Goardie in an Aussie pup was to establish a racial undertone to why the guys where picking him, an e.g. of customizing a scenario to the participant.


Edited by drgndrew (01/23/09 09:04 PM)
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
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www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#408631 - 01/23/09 09:36 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Cord]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
G'day Cord and Gavin, I hope your enjoying that UK weather, been a bit hot down here.

Quote:

Sorry, but that clip is a text book example of how to look good in a seminar, nothing else.




I don't know, i think it's a good example of basic scenario training, nothing more nothing less

Quote:


Issues.
1. His fence is good, I have no problem with that, but he could have used better angles to prevent both attackers being square on to him at the time of pre-emption. Passive 'players' could have been used as a bar crowd to facilitate this.





Agreed he could have used better angles, this is something that should be brought up in the feedback and breakdown after the scenario. the addition of other players is a likely next step in the scenario. remember it is a training tool and this is a basic level scenario.

Quote:


2. The strikes dont look hard because they arent. Fencing is about controlling range as well as buying time. All he would have done is annoy them- a lot.




I know Jim and he can hit hard, but fair enough the strikes were not full power and may have been a little light, but this was a training session, we don't always go fullcontact in RBSD just like in Kickboxing, the scenario training isn't the place to develop hard strong technique, it is a tool to gain familiarization with applying the concepts being trained, scenario work is not technique training it is concept and strategy training.

Quote:


3. The idea of the 'human shield' is all well and good, but it doesnt look like that
The shield struggles, drops to his knees, grabs on, tries to bite, spits, headbutts, and this is regardless of you trying to poke him in his eye.




so it wasn't perfect nothing in reality is. mind you I doubt very much that the shield will be thinking about head butting, biting or leg grabs or any other offensive technique when he has a finger an inch deep in his eye. he will be thinking something like get this thing out of my eye" (maybe a little more colorfully put). I will state it fully right here anyone who says they will continue to attack as if nothing has happened during an eye gouge etc is FULL OF [censored].

But in this scenario Jim isn't actually gouging the eye, at most he would have his hand in his face, and yes you can fight through that, especially if you have experienced before but experience or not you will react significantly to an actual eye gouge.

Quote:


The attacker obstructed by his passive 'shield' in this clip has several chances in range to land clean punches to the defenders jaw- he took none of them, merely closed distance and waited to be dealt with- if you get attacked like that, then lucky you.




But he didn't why I don't know, maybe he was letting up a little maybe he didn't see the openings, maybe he was determined to do something else thus didn't think about capitalizing on the openings. again this is a what if, what if the opponent did something different to what he did, then the response and action would have unfolded differently

Quote:


Just another 'MA's are awesome' clip where someone walks away without a scratch.




I don't know didn't look like like that to me, Jim eventually got smashed against the bar at the end and the fact that many people are commenting on how bad it looks sort of counters you statement.

All in all these are your thoughts on the video and I respect them.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#408632 - 01/23/09 10:04 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Gavin]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
G'day Gav.

Quote:

Quote:

Sorry, but that clip is a text book example of how to look good in a seminar, nothing else.




Exactly which part of that clip did anyone look 'good'?





when does reality ever look good.

Quote:


I could not honestly see any discernible skill in that clip whatsoever. No skilled delivery system from which to attack or defend on,



Instead of looking for technique based skill, look at the skill in applying strategy.

I've discussed the open space of the scenario earlier.

That fact is real world violence doesn't look good
the delivery system is behavioural based, could you explain what you mean by delivery system. from what I see there most definitely a delivery system in play it just isn't technique based. if he had of formed a fighting stance for example it would have been counter intuitive to his de-escalation attempt.

Quote:


abysmal footwork,




he stayed on his feet and maintained his balance, he rather successfully kept them on one front, not allowing them to flank him is that not footwork. how would you do it better.

Quote:


terrible use of space (does Oz have bars the size of football fields? He back peddled more distance than most people run marathons) ),



he used the space available to him, ok so it wasn't typical to a actual pub environment but see my comments previously about that.

His back peddling was in a circular motion, which kept the attacker together and didn't allow flanking.

Quote:

pitiful striking,



It may look that way, and it isn't technically perfect but reality rarely is. I'll point out again that this is a training exercise, technical and pretty striking is not the concern effect striking is. if they weren't wearing helmets i think there would be a different perception of the effectiveness of the striking. or if you were the one in the helmet. the point of the scenario was not the striking

Quote:


grappling on par with your average unskilled untrained drunk and well, that was the good stuff.





What do you expect flying arm bars and wrist locks.

Gavin instead of just saying it sucked could you tell me how to improve it. (genuine question)

Quote:


Why anyone would pay to 'learn' how to do that? I'm utterly amazed....




Because reality based self defence provides you with the best chance of surviving a real world violence encounter.

You are judging an entire movement and an instructor on 1min 15sec's of footage. heres news for you dude people don't pay for a 75second scenario they pay to learn the concepts and tactics (and techniques) that scenario training help to integrate.

Now I understand that these are your believes on the subject, and I respect that, but please don't be to hasty to judge on limited info.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#408633 - 01/23/09 10:20 PM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: drgndrew]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Hey guys How many actual RBSD seminars or training sessions have you attended.

how many real life encounters have you been involved in, and how many of those did you do exactly the same as the complaints leveled at this video.

RBSD is not Martial arts, and trying to make it look like it just doesn't work.

Martial arts try for perfection, RBSD realize that perfection does not exist in the real world. there's nothing wrong with aiming for perfection but there is something inherently wrong with criticizing anything in the real world that is not perfect.

my understanding comes very much from experience, I'm sure I've posted some of it here in the past so I won't post it again in case it comes across as boasting (though to boast about something you need to take pride in it, I take pride in all the encounters I prevented going physical which greatly out number the physical ones.), I have traditional, sporting and reality based systems experience and knowledge. so I believe my opinions are well rounded.

Now I'm not saying that you should listen to me and forget everything else, far from it I'm not that far up my self, but What I do ask is to understand what I say is based on honest belief and empirical evidence that backs up that believe. I listen to all the criticisms of RBSD because I genuinely want to provide my students with the best information and the best "way" available. I'll look at criticism and if it can lead to an improvement of what I do then I take it on board. That being said much of the most common criticisms about RBSD training and philosophy are based on hear say misinformation. I have already proved to my self these are not valid criticisms.

anyway I type too much

Be open minded and try to see where something "MAY' be true. and give up on "what if" arguments that are a waste of intellect and can never be won. if you disagree provide a solution if you can or at minimum explain why you disagree. hey if it just doesn't ring true then say that and use it as a based to discover why you intuitively don't agree.

sorry don't mean to sound like I'm telling you how to think

and I'm still typing.............


Edited by drgndrew (01/23/09 10:25 PM)
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#408634 - 01/24/09 02:37 AM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: drgndrew]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Hey guys How many actual RBSD seminars or training sessions have you attended.

how many real life encounters have you been involved in, and how many of those did you do exactly the same as the complaints leveled at this video.




Gavin used to run a school devoted to it. Combat Arena as i recall. He is also a second generation door supervisor.

I worked doors for 10 years, and have been working in security for literally over half my life (18 of nearly 35 years).

Quote:

Martial arts try for perfection, RBSD realize that perfection does not exist in the real world. there's nothing wrong with aiming for perfection but there is something inherently wrong with criticizing anything in the real world that is not perfect.




But I am criticising this clip because it is 'perfect'. He makes lots of mistakes, leaves himself open to very real danger, and the only reason that the 'attackers' dont capitalise on it is because it is not in the remit of the exercise to do so.
That is not reality based at all, and if those had been real attackers, moving through those exact events, he would be picking his chin up off the floor after about 50 seconds.

Sorry, but that is the truth of it.
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#408635 - 01/24/09 04:07 AM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: drgndrew]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hi mate,

As Cord said above I used a run a 'reality based' club for want of a better word. My original club, where I trained for 18 years, run by my father, was a breeding ground for Doorman, all barring one of the Black Belts were Doorman and a fair portion of the kyu grades so 'reality' was (and still is) a primary concern there. Within the RBSD world there is a common belief that are Martial Arts are 'technique' led which all though true for the most, isn't totally the norm. A good fighting art (substitute for self defense/protection system if semantics are an issue with 'fighting') should be principle led. A principle is a universal component that powers all techniques, such as the ability to drive shots, throws, chokes, locks etc from the feet, developing the mindset that you can do this without hitting red mist, learning how to be strong from any position and how to seamlessly transfer between fighting ranges as dictated by the environment/situation. A delivery platform is built from the foundation of anything I mentioned above and more. Building skills that are then validated and tested rigorously in fight drills and free fighting. It is through 'techniques' that we have a vehicle from which to explore universal skills that are layered in and refined as the student progresses through their study.

RBSD like in this clip and virtually every clip I've witnessed is snake oil. I honestly don't believe people walk out of these training sessions any better than they walk in. On them there is plenty of talk about posturing, tactics, environmental awareness, etc, etc, a little training on specific 'techniques' and then its out with the funky crash helmets and time to reenact scenes and scenarios from your favorite soap opera pub fights and muggings. In these clips I see people making use of their natural unskilled attributes and the only behavioral traits I see being demonstrated is that of a victim desperately flailing their arms around, everyone clapping and then they all feel safe in the fact that they can do the business. As Cord said I would absolutely love to have had that level of aggression during my time on the Door.

I feel its fair to justify the snake oil comment as initially that might seem like a mindless dig. As I said above I don't believe in these 'scenarios' those guys are developing anything more than their natural untrained attributes, and believe that if they had been attacked like that prior to this training their performance would be no better or worse. Trouble is after the seminar they may go out and get in a spot of bother and low and behold that react exactly the same way as they did in the seminar (which in my lowly opinion they would have performed that way with or without the seminar - and without it the geordie would probably have a bit more cash for Ozzie beer - which probably ain't a good thing ) and thus the 'reality based' based seminar is validated.

Like many Doorman I really loved Geoff Thompsons early work and heard the message that to survive you need to be able to punch, kick, grapple, fight with weapons AND be able to do it 'f*cking hard' and I also heard the message that you need to train everyday with top quality people to become 'world class'. Learn to jab properly then drill and drill it until you can fire it off without thinking. Learn to throw by drilling and drilling until that becomes an attribute you can use should the need arise. That is the only way to learn self defense, it is from a position of skill and strength that people gain confidence and that takes time and hard work. I believe that the guys on that and virtually all of the seminars I've seen would be better off enhancing their natural attributes down the gym than they would going on these sorts of seminars.

I stopped calling my club a RBSD club and I eventually disbanded it because eventually it just turned into a fight club attracting already skilled Martial Artists looking for hard sparring and the unskilled Doorman who liked to scrap. The training was fun and hard, but was actually in reality providing a fairly negative environment that was eventually producing very little skill. I don't like selling snake oil so closed the doors.

Here is a great article by a UK guy called Mick Coup who is a UK guy who I think sums RSDB perfectly for me... and he has a tiny bit of experience:

http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/q-a-wi...rview-t6786.htm
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#408636 - 01/24/09 04:26 AM Re: Top Ten Aussie (RBSD) Instructors [Re: Cord]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:



But I am criticising this clip because it is 'perfect'. He makes lots of mistakes, leaves himself open to very real danger, and the only reason that the 'attackers' dont capitalise on it is because it is not in the remit of the exercise to do so.




Sorry Cord but where in the video did you hear anyone instructing the attackers not to attack the defender, if the attackers did not capitalise on openings then that is the attackers fault for what ever reason. Now the attackers may not have been as experienced at being attackers (they were after all seminar attendants), But I can assure you they were not performing with the indent to make Jim look good or any other such BS.

Quote:


That is not reality based at all, and if those had been real attackers, moving through those exact events, he would be picking his chin up off the floor after about 50 seconds.

Sorry, but that is the truth of it.




So what your saying is basically if the attackers acted differently then what they did and Jim still did exactly what he did it would have ended differently ......[b} Well Duhh!!, do you think maybe Jim would have responded differently himself.

The attackers didn't take advantage of some openings (for what ever reason), if they did then those openings would have been dealt with.

man I have to giggle at arguments that basically say "if he was attacked differently then what he did wouldn't work". it's worst then the what ifs, at least you can use what ifs to build a scenario the if he was attacked differently argument is just plain pathetic.

guys throws a hay maker the attacker evades, but wait a sec thats wrong because if he did that against someone throwing a front kick it would work.....Well Duhh!!!



Dude it's a introduction to a training exercise.

I understand what your saying, and I agree there are things that could've been done better. These are the type of things that would be discussed in the feedback/breakdown session afterwards.

but It WAS REALITY BASED, it was an introduction to reality based training using a scenario that is very possible even if simplified (eg no tables and chairs etc)

From your background you should know that this is how these things start, and the begining of this video is an example of that and it does happen in reality just like that. the main difference between the scenario and a real world event that started the same way is that the guy tries to deescalate it instead of the usual "f**k off, Pr!*k", which would instantly escalate the situation with both attackers jumping in straight away

In reality it wouldn't have made it to 50 seconds. The attackers wouldn't be just getting up and starting again would they, if they were knocked down with helmets I would bet they would be less willing to get up and have another go if they weren't wearing them. So yes in one sense it isn't reality because of the over kill of the attackers coming back.

OK thats my argument for the video, if you honestly think it is crap then so be it, but at least judge it on what it is and in context. It was an introduction to scenario training, it was 75 seconds of a 4 hour (I think it was 4 hours might have been longer) long seminar for members of the public, it was not an advanced (level) participant seminar.

I would like for you guys to post an example of what You consider to be "Good" Reality Based Training, that can be reproduced with in a budget.

Come on guys show me the light.
_________________________
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With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
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Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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