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#408037 - 09/17/08 09:08 PM Gojushiho
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Over the years I've described my training with Tristan Sutrisno. Well I've been able to capture a video of him doing Gojushiho Kata (Tristan is a Shotokan practitioner and his hart has Gojushiho, Gojushiho Dai and Gojushiho Sho kata).

This was back at a local tournament in 1992 which he entered for fun.

The video is on my youtube account at http://www.youtube.com/user/BushiNoTeIsshinryu.

I also have Dave Piehota doing the same kata in a different division then, and additionally my student Young Lee doing his interpretation of the kata last year.

The video's can be found at http://www.youtube.com/user/BushiNoTeIsshinryu

As you see this practice is somewhat different in focus from the contemporary WKA tournament versions.

pleasantly,
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#408038 - 09/18/08 09:56 PM Re: Gojushiho [Re: Victor Smith]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
you can go through and pick out all sorts of differences in the technique but there are a few moves that make each proformance "gojushiho" at its core. i'd be interesdted to see what the difference would mean to the application of each technique? i would think they'd be pretty much the same in action.
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#408039 - 09/19/08 05:39 AM Re: Gojushiho [Re: student_of_life]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Student,

I the case of the Sutrisno kata you would be wrong, of course it's indelicate of me to share this, but it's not giving much away either.

This approach to bunkai is the techniques do not follow the kata, their study of bunkai use movement points in the kata as a mnemonic device for an entire string of techniques to slice through someone like a hot knife through butter (alas I've experienced that), and at each dan level each kata is learned anew with entirely different bunkai.

Their approach is somewhat equivalent to Demura's old explanation of Kakushite (hidden hand). I've not met any other group that takes that approach to technique application, and I'm sure it's from his fathers extensive background in Shotokan, Aikido and Siliat tjimande with decades and decades of work to make it so.

My studies with him never got to the bunkai of Gojushiho, it was just on the first level, the movement dynamics of the kata (and that's why I've retained it in my proram for my most senior students). Following my own study of movement application dynamics I imagine my answers are closer to what you suggest.

But in no universe if Tristan explained he was going to "Gojushiho" me would I have any idea what he would be doing. Only his senior students would.

I got more from him than I can do in addition to my own Isshinryu studies, but I am well aware how much I didn't get either.

The one thing you can observe, the dynamics of his movement in his kata performance is exactly how he would apply his 'bunkai' against your attack. Explosive.

Tristan teaches a very small group in Scranton Pennsylvania these days, and spends time around the world with various Siliat groups too.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#408040 - 09/19/08 11:35 AM Re: Gojushiho [Re: Victor Smith]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Very impressive Victor!

Do you know where this version of Gojushiho comes from? It looks almost like an AKK form, not that I've seen many of them.


Edited by Shonuff (09/19/08 11:37 AM)
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#408041 - 09/19/08 12:04 PM Re: Gojushiho [Re: Victor Smith]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
this bit has me thinking.

"This approach to bunkai is the techniques do not follow the kata"

in what way do they not follow the kata? do they use the kata movements as entering and clearing methods to allow for a more "free" style of attack or throw, from the silat and aikido backgrounds?

please elaborate a bit more if you can.
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its not supposed to make sense

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#408042 - 09/19/08 02:56 PM Re: Gojushiho [Re: student_of_life]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Student,

Track back to the very early 80's, when I met Tristan by competing against him in kata and kodudo divisions. No place I trained (and I trained all over Eastern Penna and Md.) was doing bunkai to kata anyplace.

Eventually Tristan invited me down to his school in Hazleton Penna and I started dropping in regularily. He introduced me to his 'bunkai' (I had only read the term in the karate magazines back then) and sharted sharing more than a bit of his Shotokan system. Bunkai was not a kyu study, there were many drills (karate, aikido and siliat), two person sets, etc. He started showing some of his bunkai for kata (learned from his father) and the bunkai techniques, while liked to the kata, mostly had nothing to do with the kata, sometimes applications as atached to a kata techinque or techniques, sometimes just a string of techniques that were totally unconnected.

There is no simple way to describe it, but they struck, they grabbed and downed, they caused great pain, etc. whether they were Shotokan kata bunkai, tjimande studies or aikido techniques. He remarked to me many times over the yeras why weren't others doing bunkai.

Years later when I choose to deepen my own study in Isshinryu, I choose to take a different answer working on the wealth of application potential within kata techniques.

IMO in the long run there is no difference, you have techniques to insert into an attack, and if you have skill you do so.

I learned a great deal from Tristan, material which I still draw from, but I am an Isshinryu stylist at core.

His art is extremely complex and dynamic, builds to some of the explosives speed you see in the kata, but in everything he does. You really don't want to see what he does with kama or tanto drills among others.

There are many different answers to how karate technique can be used, to date I've seen no one else do anything remotely similar to his family study.

Truthfully I can make the same statement about a number of the instructors I've trained with too.

Ernest Rothrock's Eagle Claw is an extremely rich system in application and a very structured method to learn his arts.

The late Sherman Harrills hundreds of technique studies from the 8 Isshinryu kata is another example.

I respect any answer, simple or complex that gets the job done.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#408043 - 09/30/08 12:08 AM Re: Gojushiho [Re: Victor Smith]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Quote:

Student,

I the case of the Sutrisno kata you would be wrong, of course it's indelicate of me to share this, but it's not giving much away either.

This approach to bunkai is the techniques do not follow the kata, their study of bunkai use movement points in the kata as a mnemonic device for an entire string of techniques to slice through someone like a hot knife through butter (alas I've experienced that), and at each dan level each kata is learned anew with entirely different bunkai.

Their approach is somewhat equivalent to Demura's old explanation of Kakushite (hidden hand). I've not met any other group that takes that approach to technique application, and I'm sure it's from his fathers extensive background in Shotokan, Aikido and Siliat tjimande with decades and decades of work to make it so.

My studies with him never got to the bunkai of Gojushiho, it was just on the first level, the movement dynamics of the kata (and that's why I've retained it in my proram for my most senior students). Following my own study of movement application dynamics I imagine my answers are closer to what you suggest.

But in no universe if Tristan explained he was going to "Gojushiho" me would I have any idea what he would be doing. Only his senior students would.

I got more from him than I can do in addition to my own Isshinryu studies, but I am well aware how much I didn't get either.

The one thing you can observe, the dynamics of his movement in his kata performance is exactly how he would apply his 'bunkai' against your attack. Explosive.

Tristan teaches a very small group in Scranton Pennsylvania these days, and spends time around the world with various Siliat groups too.




How the heck would you study that hodge-podge of improper mechanics and techniques and get anything from it but "???"? Come on now...

Sorry dude but that looks like TKD or Shotokan. Those long, deep stances, lack of relaxed power, rushed movements, missing and replaced waza, etc.. Sigh. Just what I thought-- plastic.

Do you really think that that stuff is not schoolboy karate and that it is as relevant as true Okinawan kata? Didn't you do Shorin Ryu and Isshin Ryu? Was your instruction this average? I mean the guy has decent speed, but there is a difference between speed and combat quickness. Waki-waki fo' sho'...

Very journeyman for a "master".

All "karate" was not and is not the same or even close to being equal. Especially if you're learning diluted kid's karate or non-Okinawan Karate which is about 98% of the crap out there.

Just my informed opinion.
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#408044 - 09/30/08 05:10 AM Re: Gojushiho [Re: Unyu]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Bryan,

Nice to see you back, it's always good to hear your opinions.

If you're ever in Scranton, Pa. let me set up a meeting with Tristan for you. I'm sure you'd find his arts most interesting in person.

plesantly,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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