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#407604 - 10/13/08 03:24 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: everyone]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA

IMO most serious (TMA) techniques come from ground or clinch/very close range, but just because something is a ground or clinch technique doesn't remove it from being a sport technique. This is defined by intent of the technique (hurt or maim/kill).

I understand, but intent will not trump skill very often. MMA people specialize in those ranges, making it unlikely that someone else will be able to out-skill them there, no matter the intent.


I believe the main difference of opinion we have is that you don't believe there are effective techniques outside of what is used in MMA.

Whoa, dude! Way off base with that assumption. I did American kenpo for some time. I know there are plenty of non-sporting things that will work. But I also know that they are not any more reliable than most of the sporting techniques.


I believe there are. Maybe someday we can meet and demonstrate our points. I am not sure there would be any other way to sway eachothers opinions. (And no, I'm not challenging you to a fight. No reason to get my butt kicked over some silly beliefs)


No worries. I am no great fighter. I am not even an MMAer. I am a bad kenpo guy and even worse BJJ'er.
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#407605 - 10/13/08 03:57 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: MattJ]
everyone Offline

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Well then I guess we agree on many of the same points then. A skilled MMA fighter can defend themselves better then a less skilled TMA fighter. MMA and other competition does tend to increase skill level.

I would never rely upon a "finishing technique" to end a fight but that will be my goal (so I assume it will not work, cut the technique short, and keep sparring in practice).

And for Butterfly's points, I presented my arguements in a very black/white for sake of arguement (to present a point). Sport and self-defense are not polar opposites as I may have implied. But I still think intent and what techniques one chooses to focus on will define whether one is practicing a sport or self-defense.

This thread started out focusing on effectiveness of Aikido techniques. The principles of the techniques are sound. They also are generally not suitable for MMA or other sports (but they are not intended for sport).

#407606 - 10/14/08 12:29 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: butterfly]
dandjurdjevic Offline

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia


the reason is an inadequate knowledge and appreciation of front kicks and other traditional techniques resulting from dilution.

Not to be too abrupt here, this is dismissive in some sense and patronizing in another since you are generalzing about a large group with whom you may have little to no truck, despite your experience.

Well, butterfly you're right. The comment was hastlily made and overly generalised. It sounds dismissive and patronising of people I know to be skilled fighters, so I must apologise.

However my view that the front kick is poorly understood remains. That it is so because of long term dilution (both in the traditional martial arts where its application is fading and, by extension in modern combat sports) is also my firm view. I find this a regrettable situation because I have found it to be an excellent technique - albeit hard to learn. I think it is a matter of time before we start seeing its use more frequently. I might be wrong, but that's how I see it.

In my experience, part of the difficulty with front kicks is that they can only really be applied in what I have termed the "melee range" and this is not the focus of many traditional (or ring) fighting disciplines today - many will cut straight the clinch or grappling once their full range is breached.

In the end you have presented your view cogently, coherently and politely, which I respect (cf. my own response).

#407607 - 10/14/08 11:23 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: dandjurdjevic]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Dan and Everyone,

First, Michael, you're right. This topic was about Aikido principles and got a bit side tracked. And no biggie about irritations real or perceived in the comments.

This was an honest appraisal of our understandings and an argument worth the time. As I am fond of saying, what fun would it be to watch a game and everyone roots for the same team?

#407608 - 10/14/08 01:58 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: MattJ]
Ames Offline

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
First, yeah this discussion got sidetracked...but then again it's been lively and I've seen no reason to shut the thread down.

Matt, I'm not saying that by including grappling the odds were unfairly stacked against the TMA fighters in the early UFC's. What I'm saying is that the odds were stacked in the Gracie's favour because they did not include high level representatives of other grappling arts (such as Judo).

Now, that being said, I still think the Gracie's would have taken those early UFC's because, as you said, BJJ grew out of Vale Tudo and thus had the most experiance under this rule set. TMA had zero.

I'm also not disargeeing really with the thrust of your agrument, namely that MMA is a useful art for 'street self defence'. I've sparred all out and grappled with MMA practioners, and anyone who beleive an eye- gouge or an elbow to the back of the head is enough to stop these guys is delusional. Hopefully that delusion won't get them killed.

On the other hand, I think TMA offers many things which MMA doesnt'. Not everyone is interested in becoming the toughest mo'fo on the street. There are alot of other perfectly valid reasons to get into the martial arts.

I recently read an article in a backissue of 'Journal of Asian Martial Arts' where several studies were discussed which posit the theory that certain activies alter the personality of the athlete. It was shown that without a proper ethical framework, practioners of certain methods of combative training are far more likely to engage in violence outside the dojo; whereas those who engage in certain TMA are far less likely. I think Aikido, in this context, might make sense for a lot of people to de-stress and become calmer people. I'll dig up the issue and reference it directly when I'm back home.

All that being said, the main thing I was saying in this thread has not really been answered by anyone. I showed videos of techniques that are written off as 'low percentage' working in an MMA environment in hopes that MMA practioners might realize that there is a wealth of knowledge contained in TMA which may make their fighting abilities greater.

At the same time, TMA people need a better delivery system in order for their techniques to work. What we all need to do is to realize that both of our arts can be enhanced by an openminded appraisal of the 'other'.

What I'm begining to see is MMA people 'stopping' at the arts which are already used in MMA competition (greco-roman, boxing, MT, BJJ). This is unfortunate, because there are many techniques which can be taken from other arts and succesfully used in competition.

"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."

#407609 - 10/14/08 02:42 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Ames]
fileboy2002 Offline

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
I wanna chime in to to say Ames is absolutely correct whe he says not everyone interested in studying martial arts wants to be a bad-ass. One reason I prefer to study judo rather than MMA is that at age 39, I don't want to get punched in the face 500 times a week.

What makes MMA so attractive to one group of prospective students is the same thing that makes another group look elsewhere. I hope the MA community remains a big tent where many people can find their niche.

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