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#407504 - 09/22/08 03:24 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Eyrie,

When I wrote that post, I was reiterating a point you made several times in the past--i.e.that we who complained because we could not find examples of aikido being practiced in an "alive" manner were missing the point. Aikido, according to you, operated according to a different "paradigm." I hope I am not misrepresenting you by putting it that way. And please don't ask me to comb through your hundreds of posts to find your exact words; you can do that quicker than I can.

As far as judo goes, nearly all judo schools operate according to a "sports oreinted syllabus." Those that do not are few and far between, and are not really representative of what we usually term "judo." I suspect randoori-oriented aikido schools are just as unrepresetative of what we usually term "aikido."

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#407505 - 09/22/08 03:53 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

As far as your example of kata vs. "alive" training, I agree 100%--I wouldn't bet on the kata guy either. But I would go even further. I bet if we took two people of equal intelligence and ability, had one train with pads, live opponents, etc for a year, and had the other train in kata for 20 years, 25 years, 30 years--you name it--the kata guy would STILL get his butt kicked. Kata training has zero to do with fighting. Again, I suspect I will be in the minority on this one.






Really? This is a completely subjective statement, without any evidence backing it up whatsoever.

In that video I posted, when that elbow was hyperextended, do you think that MMA practioner trained that technique 'alive' before hand?

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#407506 - 09/22/08 04:17 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

I don't think any area of human activity, be it martial arts or religion, ought to be above critical anyalysis. As Bill Maher once said, "you have every right to keep telling me why you believe in your religion, and I have every right to keep telling you it's dumb."




I again agree. However, one can point to evidence to support your contentions and one can ask reasons for someone else's convictions and argue about these; but what I think a person ought not to do is be patronizing toward someone else's choice if it is an informed one, despite anyone's dislike of that choice.

I am not saying you are patronizing here, since I have only seen some good robust back-and-forths (and this is one of the few interesting threads of late). But arguments that twist in the wind between two different reasons for study of an MA often degrade to this point of patronizing no-return. Someone's choices are his own.

On the other hand, if he chooses to argue about effects of those choices that's another story. Arguing exclusively about the wrongness or rightness of why choose this route and not another, especially if there is exposure to other training methods, seems outside the ken of the argument of personal efficacy in the martial arts since that again comes from an internalized perspective that someone else can't comment on. Just the way I think.

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#407507 - 09/22/08 04:46 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Ames]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
It is a subjective statement, specifically a subjective statement known as an "opinion." And, as I said, I suspect not many people on here will share it.

I certainly cannot back up my opinion on this with "hard" evidence. Someone who believed the opposite--i.e. that practicing kata was an important part of becoming a skilled fighter--could not offer any "hard" evidence either. But since asking for evidence is legitimate, let me point out the following:

1) Kata are only common to some (most) "traditional" Eastern martial arts. Boxing and wrestling, for example, do not employ formal kata as a training method. Yet this in no way limits their effectiveness. If kata are so important, why is it some martial arts do perfectly well without them?

2) There appears to be a rough correlation between the amount of "alive" training martial artists engage in and how much importance they attach to kata. In general, the more realistic training gets, the less kata are emphasized. It is telling that among Eastern arts, uber-realistic Muay Thai stands out for NOT using kata.

3) In 25 years of MA training, no one has been able to give me a coherent, specific reason why kata are practiced. Whenever I asked, I usually got a vague answer suggesting the nuances of technique were somehow "hidden" in kata. As a former high school teacher with some knowledge of pedagogy, I can assure you that "hiding" vital information from students is flat out idiotic no mattter how you do it. Other times, I was simply assured that since kata were part of the "tradition," someone must have thought this all through long ago, and I should just have faith and practice kata despite my doubts. Again, sheer idiocy.

I think the real reason for kata is simple inertia. We do kata because our teachers tell us we should. They did kata because their teachers told them they should. And so, and so on. Some people call this preserving traditon; I call it a lack of critical thinking.

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#407508 - 09/22/08 05:20 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
What is your opinion on Judo kata Fileboy, out of curiousity?

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#407509 - 09/22/08 05:25 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
The thread is derailed (sorry for that), and I agree with you for what its worth. On the other hand, for those who do claim utility out of kata, I am not someone who can gainsay it either if that is what they say informs some of their abilities. And if they say doing X gives them some holistic understanding of movement, well I canít counter that since it is subjective. We can, however, base credible development of use of fighting techniques in contention with others who subscribe to certain styles or methods---and I have yet to see a TMAist wallop a more modern MAist who uses boxing or grappling, or a MMAist. This still doesnít prove the point though, since these could be good examples of one and sorrier examples of the other. And as I have been pointing out in SD terms, all this stuff is really over rated in my opinion.

The problem arises in taking any particular example and stating this is indicative of the whole. Same with having someone winning a fight and saying that he used KI to vanquish his opponent. Whether he believes it was a KI laden techniques or not, does not mean he used it, just believes he did. Could be just a skillful fighter laying his skills on the altar of something other than himself. Though the good thing with a fighter who professes no KI related abilities in his wins is that itís him and his training and nothing more special than the physical abilities he learned and can employ.

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#407510 - 09/22/08 05:55 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Zach_Zinn]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Judo kata are marginally better because they at least involve two people. Two person kata are okay as a starting point, as one gradually learns to apply techniques. Does that mean judo needs kata? Not at all. Wrestling, similar to judo in many respects, does fine without them. Judo could survive the loss of its kata without any ill effects, I am sure.

BTW--other martial arts also feature two-person kata. I should have specified my objection was mainly aimed at the overemphasis one one-person kata. Sorry about that.

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#407511 - 09/22/08 06:28 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Judo kata are marginally better because they at least involve two people. Two person kata are okay as a starting point, as one gradually learns to apply techniques. Does that mean judo needs kata? Not at all. Wrestling, similar to judo in many respects, does fine without them. Judo could survive the loss of its kata without any ill effects, I am sure.

BTW--other martial arts also feature two-person kata. I should have specified my objection was mainly aimed at the overemphasis one one-person kata. Sorry about that.




Overemphasis on solo performance of kata is more about bad usage of class time IMO.

Karate Kata are meant to be trained two man as well as solo....some people spend alot more time on the application bit. I'm sure you'd find something in the method to disagree with, but it's a bit inaccurate to take "Kata training" (at least in a Karate etc. context imo) and assume that means strictly solo performance.

That's the problem with the example of a guy doing pads etc. and one guy just doing Kata, it isn't that common anymore (at least from what I see) to find people that just train solo kata all the time.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/22/08 06:34 PM)

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#407512 - 09/23/08 12:21 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Ames,

The first technique is aikido'ish. But the second one when the guy hyper-extended the elbow, well, that's a very common technique done in Judo's kata.

So... again, it's not all Aikido.

Now, how did this thread become all talk about katas?

~Donnie
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#407513 - 09/23/08 10:53 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Taison]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Taison, or could it be that when people actually train application and apply it well, it all looks pretty much the same? Could be Aikido, Karate, Kung Fu, BJJ or Judo....but if it works, it uses the same principles, and you apply it when someone doesn't want you to, call it what you want.

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