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#407484 - 09/19/08 05:26 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well, how much of your college or university education emcompasses everything you need to know to do your job? Why is there is need for on-going OJT and further training and education? Because, college and uni are simply "preparatory" - to give you enough of a base level education to enter into the workforce and compete.

I see no difference with MA. Not all MA are combat/self-defence oriented. It has been said, by various sources in the SD industry, that 90-99% of self-defense is awareness and avoidance. That leaves only 1-10% actual "technique". Yet, in every MA, 90% of the focus is on that 1-10%.

The same argument can be said of Aikido. It has been said that 90% of aikido is atemi. Yet, 90% of the focus is spent on other things, other than atemi. Makes you wonder where the atemi comes in, or are people generally missing the forest for the trees when they are looking at or practising "technique". Maybe they're looking through the wrong "lens" of technique, as a practical means to dispatch someone? Maybe it's just a "tool"... It's the exact same argument with training methods... as in a method of learning about combat, rather than a method of combat.

I don't think there is any way to separate the "education" from the "student". The range of people's martial IQs varies too greatly. And teachers teach at different levels - hopefully commensurate at the student's level of understanding.

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#407485 - 09/19/08 05:42 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: dandjurdjevic]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Dandjurdjevic,

I think we disagree on something pretty basic here. You seem to regard training methods and techniques as two seperate things. I do not. They are intimately interrelated. How you train largely determines what techniques you use and how you use them.

For example, notice that in Muay Thai, kicks are delivered primarily with the shin, knee or (less often) with the heel. This is not just the result of some ancient, sacred "tradition." Long ago, the extreme realism of Muay Thai taught Thai boxers an important lessen: that kicking with the foot carries a high risk of broken bones--for the kicker! Had Muay Thai not been practiced under "alive" conditions, they might never have gained this insight and Muay Thai kicking techniques would be far different today.

The bottom line: students, schools and/or styles that do not train under realistic, "alive" conditions are not likely to develop a strong repertiore of practical techniques. They may know a large number of techniques; they may even know some very complex techniques. But unless they have practiced them under realistic conditions, how can they know which ones work and which ones don't? How can they know what aspect of a given techniques needs modification and/or improvement? Sorry, but unless you practice "alive" training, it is all just dancing.

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#407486 - 09/19/08 07:46 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I don't think the Thai boxers use their techniques just because of "extreme realism". A front kick with the ball of the foot requires a great deal more time to learn.

And please - call me Dan.
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#407487 - 09/19/08 08:36 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
FB,

This is where I 'mostly' agree with you and I am not playing both sides of the field, if it appears this way. So I want to make clear how I view things. First, I dislike people dousing water on others’ martial arts interests, so I have mentioned this in my other posts. This is not directed at you, btw, just making my perspective known--their decisions, their reasons and not for someone else to disabuse them of it if they enjoy it.

However, if functional use is mandated for equally adept and willing students, then I think there are clear training protocols that win out over other training. So I see performance forked between two things that are inextricably tied, but which can be looked at separately. And those are the student and his training.

All things being equal in the realm of the student’s willingness to train and wanting utility out of that training, then one has to focus on education. Utility can only be measured by functional use in an unscripted environment. If you had a clone of two individuals and gave one a traditional martial arts education over the span of a year that relied "mostly" on kata and solo practice of technique, and gave the other some focus mitt training, sparring and a partner(s) to punch, kick and grapple with while increasing the intensity over time, my bet is not on the one studying kata to have more useable techniques if it came to relying on them in a fight. This doesn’t say that the kata guy only does kata or that the “live” practitioner doesn’t stand in front of a mirror sometimes to tweak a hook punch. What it does suggest is a preponderance of effort in one area over another will give you better and quicker results.

So, to make myself understood….not all education is created equal and neither are the students. How one is able to use one’s own education or chooses other paths to utility is up to the student. However, some education, IMO, will serve the student better if willingness and capability is there to use it when compared to other forms of education. One does not swim best by flailing one’s arms on dry land. You learn to swim by getting into the water and then later moving into the deep end.

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#407488 - 09/19/08 10:42 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: butterfly]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Nor does jumping into the deep end on the first lesson mean that the doggy paddle is optimum for swimming. It isn't - irrespective of the fact that it is "natural", "no-nonsense", "straightforward", "easy to learn" and "useful immediately". And it doesn't matter how long you perfect it - in the water or in front of a mirror.

The kata clone in your hypothetical will be less prepared for combat that the gloves and bags clone. But he needn't stay that way. He will learn a formal version of freestyle, backstroke, breastroke and butterfly. Now all he needs to do is start applying it.

This is the difference between training and technique.

The chief difference in the analogy is that, unlike swimming, tennis, golf - you name it - combat has almost infinite angles of movement and variables. This means that "doggy paddle" will be much more tempting and that "breastroke" will be harder to apply. It doesn't mean it is impossible. And it doesn't mean that the "extreme training" that has produced doggy paddle will be producing the optimum method. The "extreme training" if anything, discourages experimentation and development of better technique. It encourages conservative reliance on what you already know.

No one disputes the value of "live" training. But all too often on this forum I hear people devaluing the importance of technical development (or the assumption that honing the right cross to within an inch of its life is the same thing).

You need a mix of both live training and technical progression. Just as you need to get out into the "real world", you shoudn't rely on your grade 7 texts for ever.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (09/19/08 11:10 PM)

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#407489 - 09/20/08 02:11 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
As an aside, I think that BJJ is a good example of technique (not surpising since it is firmly based on judo and jujutsu, depending on how you want to label the activity that spread to Brazil). It is much richer and more complex than what people in ring sports adopt as a stand up strategy.

Grappling is however different from striking arts in that it can only be practised with a partner - hence it has never had single person kata etc. even in the traditional realm. But the technical complexity (stemming from tma) is there - same as the stand up tma arts. Imho, that the latter (eg. the art of deflection, front kicks) are not being absorbed by ring fighters is a function of the fact that they require a lot of dedicated study and are therefore largely misunderstood, not that they are inapplicable.

Unlike grappling, stand up dynamics are also a lot more variable, making it harder to apply skilled techniques cleanly. The fact that application also means a missing tooth (rather than a twisted arm) goes without saying.
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#407490 - 09/21/08 12:30 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Taison]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
As most know Hapkido is the Korean spin off of Aiki Jujustu.

I’m a Hapkidoka and I have a strong Judo and Aikido background as well. The Dojang that I belong to also is a serious Muay Thai gym as well as an MMA fight club with established fighters. So I’m infused with realistic conditions and serious skilled opponents.

I’d thought I post some of by beliefs and experience on the practicality of Martial Arts stemming from Aiki Jujutsu.

To the Point: They are highly practical if learned in a realistic environment. Yet… pure and simple, they are not conducive for sport. This factor alone…. can and does alter the training standards of various schools. If you are training for sport you have a major plus in competition, which is a huge plus in martial arts because of your adversary’s unwillingness to comply with your strategies and tactics and your need to adapt. (This we all know….just stating a fact)

The problem is.....To really get to know how to apply arts stemming from Aiki jujutsu you first have to A) train an individual how to respond to the techniques being applied (break falls, escapes etc etc..* which in itself is an acrobatic art form * then you have to train your partner to actually fight in a skilled realistic manner. Then and only then….. you can learn how to adapt to your adversary’s unwillingness to comply with Aiki jujutsu strategies and tactics. Then you can start throwing strikes and attempt to manipulate your opponent’s guard, blocks and parrys by “smothering or half clinching” in order to apply a technique. (For those that don't know...this is the offensive side to these arts…. It’s how it’s used against a skilled opponent.

The main reason you don’t see strategies and tactics (* besides grappling) that stem from Aiki jujutsu in MMA is because you can’t do them! Period!!! They are illegal! If you instructor is telling you wrist locks, throes stemming from wrist locks…. to include projection throws etc etc…. don’t work (or you yourself are convinced that these techniques are not effective…because you haven’t seen them in an MMA environment) please be advised that they do indeed do work and you are uniformed. And hopefully you don't come accross someone who is willing to apply these techniques on you.)

Unlike an arm bar, triangle choke, Kimora or the other various submissions seen in MMA (which can all be applied “once set” in a gradual application allowing the opponent to submit before injury…) techniques stemming from Aiki Jujutsu don’t allow this sporting luxury. If I go for a wrist throw I either got it or don’t…there is no in-between…I either break my opponents wrist and dislocate his elbow and he goes into shock....or I loose the grip and something else happens… Same goes for a projection throw, I either throw my opponent in a way he can’t fall safely (like on his head!) or they maintain their balance and they escape. No in-betweens! (hence not applicable to sport!)

The video at the beginning of the thread is a good example. Look at some of the throws stemming from the actual kicks. Then ask yourself what the technique would be like if the force and intent was ratcheted up to realistic intent. Then ask yourself how many times someone could actually practice said technique or how many times an Uke/opponent could be on the relieving end.

I'm not saying "because of the nature of these arts one shouldn't practice with real intent" I'm saying one should look at the non sporting aspect when veiwing the various techniqes and question do they or will they lead to "real prowess" If so I say ok... I judge the video by those critera...

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#407491 - 09/22/08 12:19 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: GansuKid]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Now you're starting to sound like another Grady;

Quote:

is because you can’t do them! Period!!! They are illegal!


No, because no one has the ability to apply it in a MMA format. It's just that simple. There have been people who've tried doing wristlocks throws and stuff, and just ended up eating a fist to the face and getting themselves clinched.

Quote:

I either break my opponents wrist and dislocate his elbow and he goes into shock....


You sound like you're breaking plastic bones and not ones made out of a calcium compound.

Quote:

No in-betweens! (hence not applicable to sport!)


Let me rephrase this. It's not applicable to sports because there's no in-between. It usually fails, that's why.

Quote:

I either throw my opponent in a way he can’t fall safely (like on his head!)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtFvR7QRmow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o3uf77tzUs [at 1:25]

What do you call those? Safe throws?


What you Hapkido/Aikido dudes keep doing again and again is that 'It's not safe for sports' excuse. I'm tired of it already.

Quote:

please be advised that they do indeed do work and you are uniformed.


Wow, another ad hominem attack. What's next? I'm a noob and all my years of training is just a big failure? Thanks for that.

Quote:

Unlike an arm bar, triangle choke, Kimora or the other various submissions seen in MMA (which can all be applied “once set” in a gradual application allowing the opponent to submit before injury…)


Yes, which means they have superiour application in that they can be controlled unlike, the way you mentioned Aikido's techniques which only have break or no break. I could easily dislocate a shoulder using a juji-gatame, or ude-garami, by applying it quickly and forcefully. But I don't because I have control, which seems to me you lack in Aikido/Hapkido.

Quote:

Then ask yourself what the technique would be like if the force and intent was ratcheted up to realistic intent.


Realistic intent? Like I said in my first post. The guy on his knee's would be lying on the ground and would probably be very injured from that encounter.

~Donnie
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#407492 - 09/22/08 04:09 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Taison]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Here's another thing I'm going to prove using visible evidence;

Throws in MMA isn't 'safe' most of the time;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXbe5DdqAlI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4tgGkJzQ68
Horrible music, aye, but look at the throws. Now I ask you, are the throws in Aikido much more devastating than this? If yes, why isn't anyone using them?

Quote:

And hopefully you don't come accross someone who is willing to apply these techniques on you.)


Yes, because then they'll notice that it doesn't work the way it ought to.

Quote:

then you have to train your partner to actually fight in a skilled realistic manner. Then and only then….. you can learn how to adapt to your adversary’s unwillingness to comply with Aiki jujutsu strategies and tactics.


Which usually ends up being choreographed and too much compliance as I've shown in the video in the first post of this topic.

Quote:

they are not conducive for sport.


Why? Try explaining without using the whole 'it's not safe for MMA format' excuse. Just why?

How hard can it be? Just train a few aikido-ka, tell them to only use Aikido, step into the ring or octagon, and show us the whole 'secret world' of aikido which none of us has seen yet. I think many of the MMA people are quite willing to get injured just to learn something new.

Until you give me a valid reason why Aikido is too 'dangerous' to be used in sports, then any and all excuses are just that; excuses, empty attempts to deflect the question at hand.

Also you made me think; if there's no 'in-betweens' when it comes to using aikido techiques, which I disbelieve, how can you teach the art? If there's only white and black sides to the art, then either you'd be teaching good but most likely dangerous techniques to your students, or just sloppy replicas that can't be used, right? So, to teach the art right, you have to either injure your students to show them it's potentially dangerous, or you just show them something similar but doesn't work and feed them a false sense of confidence and say 'if you do it this way, you could injure your opponent'. When it comes to the real thing however, your students would be doing that fake 'replica' of the techniques which you taught them.

Note to mods; I'm not art-bashing. I'm bashing the training methods, and the constant deflection of a simple question; why do they always claim to be too 'dangerous' for sport?

~Donnie
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#407493 - 09/22/08 05:15 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Taison]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
C'mon Donnie... those slams aren't just unsafe, they're outright dangerous. A mis-time, mis-step, wrong angle, and you can get a snapped neck. A slam like that in Rugby, what they call a spear tackle, is illegal and can incur a period of 6-8 week suspension from playing further games. A spear tackle like some of those "slams" on those videos, can actually damage and crack the cervical vertebrae at C1/C2 - which at best, you end up in a neck brace for a couple of months, maybe with pain and tingling down the arms to the fingers, or at worse, instantaneous death.

The throws in Aikido aren't any more or less dangerous than those in jujitsu or judo. Kata garuma is a dangerous throw isn't it? IF you throw the person in a certain way? But you don't practice it THAT way in class do you?

Besides, GansuKid is talking about Hapkido... a very very different beast, or maybe not so. The trick of course is knowing how to turn it into an unsafe throw, as opposed to practising the santized version. Not the sort of thing people normally share with noobs in the dojo, let alone on a public forum.

Sometimes you got to use your head and extrapolate how dangerous something is/is not or can made to be. Anything's going to be "too dangerous" for sport if people aren't going to play safe and sportsman-like, which one should not expect in a sport fight, much less another contact sport like Thugby.

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