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#407564 - 09/30/08 07:43 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Well, I would challenge anyone to put on a pair of shoes and try hitting squarely with the ball of the foot. Sorry, I just don't see how it is possible.




This isn't theory. I do it all the time. On gashuku (our 7 day survival camps) we train in the wilderness - with shoes. We kick shields and bags. We kick each other. I much prefer kicking with shoes. If you hit at the right angle your foot is compressed into the right shape as far as necessary.

Quote:

As for your reasons for practicing kata, I have a question: if movements need to be "compressed for application," what is the point of performing them in any other way? Wouldn't it be wiser to practice techniques in as close a manner as possible to actual application?




The concept that the combat movement is different from the kata form is not one I adhere to. My cross-referencing with the Chinese internal arts (which have a long tradition of real combat application pre Cultural Revolution) reveals to me that kata applications should actually look very much like the move - not some outlandish derivation. If they don't there's a good chance your art has been diluted.

Having said that, some kata moves are clearly compromises between 2 or 3 very similar moves (so you don't have to repeat). And some moves are 'larger' - with good reason; this raises an entire kinaesthetic issue of how you 'wire' your brain during practise. An analogy would be that when you break boards you think of punching a target past the boards. You might never reach that target, but you achieve your goal of breaking the boards. So kata moves are sometimes larger to ensure your movement is not effected in a truncated fashion when you encounter resistance. The seiyunchin embu (2 person form) I sent you is a case in point; have a look at the single person movement and note how it actually corresponds exactly (given some small compromise or 'enlargement') with the combat version.
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#407565 - 09/30/08 07:46 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Kicking with the ball of the foot in training changes the shape of your feet? Now that I have never heard before.




Whoever said that? You'll know how to effect the right foot shape for impact if you train correctly (just as one should learn how to make a correct fist for punching). Your actual foot won't change.
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#407566 - 10/01/08 01:31 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: dandjurdjevic]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

xcept most ppl 2day think txt language is full on cool writing like words n stuff and is plenty practical and u dont need propa spelling or gramer or anything same with fighting you dont need that old stuff it doesnt work on my phone




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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#407567 - 10/01/08 10:10 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: dandjurdjevic]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Quote:

The concept that the combat movement is different from the kata form is not one I adhere to. My cross-referencing with the Chinese internal arts (which have a long tradition of real combat application pre Cultural Revolution) reveals to me that kata applications should actually look very much like the move - not some outlandish derivation. If they don't there's a good chance your art has been diluted.




There is a reason martial arts styles look alike when applied against resistance. IMO they still have their stylistic differences but the movements become more difficult to detect when the movements are compressed for application. There are some exceptions to this rule, but I have seen very few.

If you have recorded a sparring session where you are shifting from posture to posture like in a form/kata, I would very much like to see it. (or if you can find an example of this type of movement in a live environment on yuoutube). The full movements in the forms/kata's work ok for demo's, just not when it counts. But that's ok because a persons natural tendancies will be to compress the movements whe the # hits the fan. (unless the practicioner is such a purist that they train this instinct out of themselves)


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#407568 - 10/01/08 10:44 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: everyone]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I don't shift from basic posture to basic posture. But I do shift. As you say, the moves are "compressed" (I prefer "abbreviated" or "smaller"). I don't see them as different moves though; rather they are part of a continuum.

The seiyuchin embu to which I refer is a case in point. Our sparring looks very much like that seiyuchin embu. The solo performance of the embu is much like the kata (sequentially a bit different). The 2 person fight looks like a brawl. Yet I get the same feeling doing the 2 person and single person forms; they have the same "yi" (mind/intent). I'm not terribly worried about the variation in the "xing" (form).

I believe that it is only when you go through this process of applying kata as fluid, dynamic 2 person forms that you understand the nexus between the formal solo technique and their application - that they are one and the same despite the apparent difference.

[In the seiyunchin embu video you'll see the solo performer gradually moving through the sequence (you only see a few moves, but you get the idea). The 2 person performers are going through the sequence, adding one more technique at at a time. Eventually the sequence becomes circular (both sides rotate through each other's "roles").]
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#407569 - 10/01/08 11:19 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: dandjurdjevic]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Dan,

I think we are just using different terms to describe the same concept. Call it compressed techniques, smaller or abbreviated. The technique doesn’t change but the subtleties are more difficult to detect by the casual observer.

I think that many, like fileboy, want to jump right to the application without the benefit of forms/kata training. Although this may be possible, I feel that the core movements would be lost, when under pressure, with this approach.

Michael

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#407570 - 10/01/08 11:27 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:

As for your reasons for practicing kata, I have a question: if movements need to be "compressed for application," what is the point of performing them in any other way? Wouldn't it be wiser to practice techniques in as close a manner as possible to actual application?




"Do it slow. GET IT RIGHT. Speed will come." old sensei's saying.


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#407571 - 10/01/08 12:30 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

The concept that the combat movement is different from the kata form is not one I adhere to. My cross-referencing with the Chinese internal arts (which have a long tradition of real combat application pre Cultural Revolution) reveals to me that kata applications should actually look very much like the move - not some outlandish derivation. If they don't there's a good chance your art has been diluted.






I may not be entirely sure what you mean by "outlandish derivation", so I may just be misinterpreting your post. That being said, I agree that many Chinese forms can be made directly applicable to the 'actual move'. However, I've noticed that these are still interpretations. Taiji, for example seems to be a largely a grappling art; yet most of the 'drrect applications' I've seen over the years display it as a striking one! I think that in the IMA there is still a wide division between how a technique looks when practiced in the form and how it looks when used in a more 'alive' situation.

Take this for example.

Here is the Wu style Taiji form being practiced:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZpuC6hWZy4

Now here are the applications, as practiced at the Wu family headquarters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUf1llA3HXg

It seems that the applications, though they resemble the form, are mostly 'conceptual'. In other words, the form trains a concept and displays it's ideal application. Actual application is often less than ideal, but usually perfectly functional.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#407572 - 10/01/08 07:02 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Ames]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
To me an derivation is "outlandish" if it moves away from the core concept or "yi". This is a matter of degree but will account for some of what fileboy has seen.
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#407573 - 10/02/08 10:53 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: dandjurdjevic]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:

xcept most ppl 2day think txt language is full on cool writing like words n stuff and is plenty practical and u dont need propa spelling or gramer or anything same with fighting you dont need that old stuff it doesnt work on my phone



Cool, man, but don't try to apply for a job with that smack on your resume.
Aikido is smooth and flowing and, done right, a bit faster than the untrained eye can follow. No way would someone my age, or even twenty years younger, be able to learn a series of moves from watching them done full speed by experts.
Do it slow, get it right, speed will come.

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