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#407544 - 09/25/08 03:30 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Taison]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Theory is theory. There will always be too many variables to make everything work accordingly. That's what these 'super aikidoka' do; they say they could do this, do that, break a neck, grab the throat, etc etc, yet they never do it. Do they even know if it would work at all? It sounds logical but in practice it may be not?





But in that video I posted there were two techniques that are exactly like those done regularly in Aikido.

This is the point I would really love someone to speak to:

Yes, Aikido's methodology would need to be changed for it to be sucessful in MMA.

Now tell me one art that has'nt had to alter its methodology in order to compete in MMA.

I don't really see how having to alter its methodology to become competetive invalidates Aikido as its taught now. It only means that so far no one who practices it has wanted to compete. Which also doesn't necesesarly mean they haven't competed out of fear or whatever either. Perhap's they are just happy with studying the art for what it is.

What I can't get is why MMA practioners aren't looking at arts like Aikido or Classical Jujutsu for new techniques to bring to the ring (although I have my theories).



--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#407545 - 09/25/08 04:01 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Ames]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
No Chris, you're getting me wrong here.

I'm not talking about Aikido as a whole, i'm talking about these 'super aikidoka' like, excuse my example, WT or Gansu who claim to have fought with lots of other styles and beaten them using ONLY Aikido yet they don't compete in any type of MMA format saying it's too dangerous for their opponents. Why?

When I practice Jujutsu, i don't do randori or anything. I go through theories, techniques, techique refinement and technique development. This is pretty much the same what an everyday aikidoka do in their own dojos.

However, I don't claim I've beaten anyone using jujutsu exclusively, and if I have, I'd have it on film not for just evidence, but also future reference. However, most of these 'super aikidoka' who've claimed to walk into various judo dojos and thrown all of their members around like ragdolls while blindfolded, rarely or better, never have any type of record of it, at least in motion picture like video.

I'm not bashing Aikido for not being effective in MMA format, it wasn't designed to and I've noticed there's a lack in ambition to do so. However, I've just seen and talked to too many 'super aikidoka' who claim they could compete and beat anyone in an MMA format easily using Aikido exclusively.

Another thing I'm tired of is 'too dangerous'. Either it means they're unable to control their own technique, or just an empty excuse based on theory and 'day dreaming'.

~Donnie
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#407546 - 09/25/08 04:42 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Taison]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Alright Taison, thanks for the clarification.

Quote:

I'm not bashing Aikido for not being effective in MMA format, it wasn't designed to and I've noticed there's a lack in ambition to do so. However, I've just seen and talked to too many 'super aikidoka' who claim they could compete and beat anyone in an MMA format easily using Aikido exclusively.





I agree that this a big problem in Aikido. I've seen others, and myself have been, shunned for studying another art!

Quote:

Another thing I'm tired of is 'too dangerous'. Either it means they're unable to control their own technique, or just an empty excuse based on theory and 'day dreaming'.





I'm getting tired of this one too. But I still think it has some merit. The fact is some techniques,
such as those in Daito Ryu, are too dangerous to use. They really do maim quickly. However luckly there's a safer 'version' of Daito Ryu out there: AIkido. O'Sensei apparently made Daito Ryu techniques less dangerous, so I don't see why they couldn't be made to function with a greater degree of regularity in a sporting environment. Even still, the potential for injury would be pretty big until all the atheletes 'caught up', (sort of how the potential danger of a ground submission has been reigned in because now people are knowledgable about when to tap).

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#407547 - 09/25/08 04:42 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Taison]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
To be fair to WT, he's in his 60's...

BTW, grass grows out from old growth, which dies out and forms a dense bottom layer of combustible mulch. You really need to see an Aussie bushfire... and how fast it can spread.

Look, the reverse argument can be made about the transition from jujitsu to judo - that the more dangerous techniques were relegated to kata form in order to preserve them, whilst the majority of techniques were modified in such a way as to allow them to be practiced full-on with more resistance.

Aikido techniques were designed for very similar reasons - so that they can be practiced full-on in circumstances where someone is really trying to hit you. If you discount uke's response, which you must, to appreciate the training format, it's not going to look like the dance choreography that has become synonymous with aikido in general. You only have to look at Tomiki-ryu/Shodokan shiai to see what that looks like. Even so, at the higher levels of skills within Tomiki shiai, it looks like something out of a Seagal movie. For example, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXCPE9YR5jA and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvfyvQIJiGo. These were taken during actual tanto shiai matches.

Anything can be adapted to conform within specific sportive rules, and it must, in order to adhere to the ideals of sportsmanship and participant safety - just as dojo techniques are almost always modified and adapted for general training purposes.

You can't look at dojo technique and assume that such things can be applied in the same manner and format under training circumstances, to sportive engagements, to situations where you are physically threatened. The circumstances are entirely different for each of those scenarios. In a sportive engagement, there is some level of expectation of "fair play", or at least "playing within the rules", on both sides. And anyone who thinks that stuff they learn in a dojo can be applied in other venues without situational adaptation is just as deluded as those who think that "dojo technique" is the defining aspect of any art.


Edited by eyrie (09/25/08 04:43 AM)

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#407548 - 09/25/08 01:11 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: everyone]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
everyone,

I doubt any martial art unsuitable for MMA competitions has much chance of being a practical self-defense art. I realize many people will see this as an extreme view.

No, MMA competitions are not the same as real fights. However, they are as close as we are ever likely to get, within the bounds of saftey and sanity. If you can't make it work there, it probably won't work onm the street, either.

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#407549 - 09/25/08 01:52 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
fileboy,

I agree that a martial art that functions well in mma will likely function well in self defense. Where we disagree is that I believe a ma that is not suited for mma competiton may function very well in self defense. I can't prove either belief. I'm sure there are people who would testify that Aikido saved them in a self-defense situation (but thats not proof). In any case, I understand your position and respect your conclusion (I just don't agree).

Michael

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#407550 - 09/25/08 04:42 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: everyone]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

fileboy,

I agree that a martial art that functions well in mma will likely function well in self defense. Where we disagree is that I believe a ma that is not suited for mma competiton may function very well in self defense. I can't prove either belief. I'm sure there are people who would testify that Aikido saved them in a self-defense situation (but thats not proof). In any case, I understand your position and respect your conclusion (I just don't agree).

Michael




I agree. I also don't believe the whole idea of "if it ain't on video, it didn't happen" either. I think that's a closeminded view. There have been some amazing things happen during ma classes that I can't duplicate,but aren't on video. It's kinda hard to recreate the exact same scenario.

Haven't you ever had a "whoah, crap, how did that happen" moment?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#407551 - 09/25/08 06:38 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: BrianS]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Quote:



I also don't believe the whole idea of "if it ain't on video, it didn't happen" either. I think that's a closeminded view. There have been some amazing things happen during ma classes that I can't duplicate,but aren't on video. It's kinda hard to recreate the exact same scenario.





I don't find that viewpoint to be close minded. I simply see it as an attempt to add some objectivity to the debate. If the debate is to discuss how effective a given martial art is in general (as opposed to those ocassional aha experiences that happen sporadically and unpredictibly) then having some sort of quasi objective measure (such as youtube) levels the playing field of debate.

That's all.

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#407552 - 09/28/08 05:24 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Taison]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
Quote:

No Chris, you're getting me wrong here.

I'm not talking about Aikido as a whole, i'm talking about these 'super aikidoka' like, excuse my example, WT or Gansu who claim to have fought with lots of other styles and beaten them using ONLY Aikido yet they don't compete in any type of MMA format saying it's too dangerous for their opponents. Why?

When I practice Jujutsu, i don't do randori or anything. I go through theories, techniques, techique refinement and technique development. This is pretty much the same what an everyday aikidoka do in their own dojos.

However, I don't claim I've beaten anyone using jujutsu exclusively, and if I have, I'd have it on film not for just evidence, but also future reference. However, most of these 'super aikidoka' who've claimed to walk into various judo dojos and thrown all of their members around like ragdolls while blindfolded, rarely or better, never have any type of record of it, at least in motion picture like video.

I'm not bashing Aikido for not being effective in MMA format, it wasn't designed to and I've noticed there's a lack in ambition to do so. However, I've just seen and talked to too many 'super aikidoka' who claim they could compete and beat anyone in an MMA format easily using Aikido exclusively.

Another thing I'm tired of is 'too dangerous'. Either it means they're unable to control their own technique, or just an empty excuse based on theory and 'day dreaming'.

~Donnie




If the moderator will permit me…… (at this point I don’t know…:0

No Taison I feel you attacked Aikido as a whole and that's how I took your posts…. I didn’t claim to use only Aikido …I’m a Hapkidoka which is all inclusive.

I never claimed to have fought “lots of other styles using only Aikido techniques” Where did you get that from my posts?

I stated...My dojang has MMA fighters, I stated I spar with them. (You can pm me I'll provide u my Dojang e-mail and you can check for yourself… What more proof do you want? Would u like to visit? Please do...)


I stated I would never use Aiki jujutsu techniques in a sporting match….because they are illegal in MMA.


I only stated that many Aiki jujutsu techniques were not pliable to sport. ….

IMO …You interpreted my words as saying Aikido was too dangerous for MMA and IMO....launched into an “A” typical diatribe against Aikido… ("A" typical, because its been tried so many times before...)

Hence…. I assumed (pardon me for doing so....) you didn’t know or have seen anyone with prowess employ Aiki jujutsu techniques ( I asked if you knew what a simple “four corner throw” was in Japanese ....Instead you stated you did jujitsu for 4 years…(which IMO isn’t a very long time….)

From where I stand….. IMO You tried to play “I’m an authority on what works and what doesn’t”

I’ll just leave it at that…I’ll check My Pm if you have any other questions you want to ask me….

Ok moderator.... I just stated that facts and My opinions....NO personal attacks...

If this is still trolling behavior...then by all means do ban me...


Edited by GansuKid (09/28/08 05:26 PM)

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#407553 - 09/29/08 07:41 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: GansuKid]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

If this is still trolling behavior...then by all means do ban me...



Lol, You haven't violated anything. You're free to express your opinions, please by all means do.

No no, this is a healthy discussion imo.

Quote:

You tried to play “I’m an authority on what works and what doesn’t”


I apologize if I come across like that. What I tried to say was that I'm not unfamiliar with those techniques, no, just that I don't see them very practical in a real confrantation with lots of pressure.

Quote:

feel you attacked Aikido as a whole and that's how I took your posts


No no. I did not meant to bash Aikido, what I was trying to say was that the training method of Aikido wasn't designed to be used in any type of MMA format, yet many 'super-aikidoka' claim to be able to compete in there without showing real evidence.

Quote:

I assumed you didn’t know or have seen anyone with prowess employ Aiki jujutsu techniques


I know Motohiro Fukakusa, 7th dan Aikido.

Be right back to you there~
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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