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#407584 - 10/07/08 12:55 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: everyone]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

People can learn to fight well without TMA. I feel they would be better had they started with a TMA.





Michael, I guess this is where we disagree and I think there's very little proof in your contentions, since there are still those who train effectively without the traditional aspect in theirs, even if you think they would be better served with a different foundation.

I have personally known traditionalists to drop their training and pursue more modern ways for practicing effective use of their techniques (kickboxing, MT, boxing, BJJ and MMAs). I have yet to see the reverse. And yet these former traditionally trained martial artists may not have all the abilities that the exclusively modern trained fighters keep in their bags.

BTW, I am half-way between traditional and non-traditional and I have no problems with how one chooses to train. Not all my training is based on the most effective routes to fighting. Yet when questions of effective and efficient training are brought up, I think one can wend a way through this tangle of training paradigms and look outside the constraints of traditional or non-traditional and focus either on functional or non-functional practices. And there is overlap. However, the questions should be what makes a technique functional? What training produces this functionality and how best to teach this?

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#407585 - 10/07/08 01:19 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: butterfly]
MattJ Offline
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Nice post, Brad. Mirrors my experience for the most part.
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#407586 - 10/09/08 09:42 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: butterfly]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
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Loc: Australia
Quote:

One can say that a hip chambered punch has many rewards when trained traditionally, yet in full contact, open competitions allowing either kickboxing rules or stand-up to ground, I have yet to see one applied. But of course, it doesn't mean that either of the competitors doesn't have to use this traditional technique. Only, if you accomodate it, then you open up your head for someone else's fist.




Eh? Freeze the frames in any ring sport like boxing, kickboxing or MMA and you'll see loads of chambers - not necessarily right at the hip, but anywhere along the arc from the hip to the ear. These are all variations on the same theme.

Consider just a few images I've frozen from 2 or so randomly chosen fights in my article Chambering punches.

I recently had someone tell me that these were examples of "bad technique". What nonsense. They are examples of necessary human biomechanics. You can't get any power out of a punch unless you load it somehow - be it by chambering or by swinging. Both leave openings, but then again every attack leaves an opening. How and when you load for a punch or kick is called timing. Without loading you'd be walking around with stiff legs and arms doing pathetic little jabs.

Quote:

So again, it begs the question of training something a particular way that you wouldn't apply the way you train it when used against people who are margingally trained in less tradtional formats.




This assumes a lot. For a start it assumes that the combat sports equivalent of karate "air techniques" - shadow boxing/combinations - is just like "applied fighting". Is it?

Consider the standard combinations used by boxers, kickboxers, MMA etc. Here is a typical example I watched just the other day in the aftermath of Kimbo's recent loss, noting 1:22 to 1:27:

Kimbo & Goldberg toe to toe

Note the short jabbing punches and compare them (honestly) with anything that actually happens in a ring fight. Note the hissing breathing with every technique and again, compare it (honestly) with what people really do in the ring.

"Ah yes," is the inevitable response, "but it is more like applied fighting than a kata". Indeed - a little. But hardly. I think that it is highly stylised. It's just that we are all more used to seeing this form of "stylised" shadow boxing than traditional Eastern forms of "air techniques". Both are "traditional" ways of isolating movements. Just like the speedball, a great part of a boxer's "air" training is nothing like "applied fighting" - it has more to do with tradition. It is a tradition we are so used to seeing that we are numbed to its disparity with applied fighting in the ring.

A boxer's "air techniques" will typically be smaller or abbreviated versions of what he/she does in a fight. A karateka's moves will typically be larger. Both are using the training to extract the "yi" or concept, not to literally follow the "xing" or form.
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#407587 - 10/09/08 09:51 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: butterfly]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Michael, I guess this is where we disagree and I think there's very little proof in your contentions, since there are still those who train effectively without the traditional aspect in theirs, even if you think they would be better served with a different foundation.

I have personally known traditionalists to drop their training and pursue more modern ways for practicing effective use of their techniques (kickboxing, MT, boxing, BJJ and MMAs). I have yet to see the reverse.




I don't doubt the effectiveness of modern combat sports. But, like Michael, I believe that modern combat sport practitioners could profit from examining traditional techniques. I'm no slouch at boxing, but I value my traditional methodology. I just don't apply it literally.

I think the fact that you have "yet to see the reverse" is regrettable, but unsurprising, given how misunderstood traditional techniques are and how long they take to develop properly.

Techniques like traditional thrusting punches and snapping front kicks are practically ignored in favour of "swinging alternatives". The traditional techniques are practically lampooned as "ineffective". I disagree and I rely on my own experience in this regard.
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#407588 - 10/09/08 11:38 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: dandjurdjevic]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Dan, we'll just have to agree to disagree on some things.

BTW, I have seen good front kicks that have literally lifted people off the ground and sent them backwards. My contentions aren't necessarily about techniques---and if you look at utility, they all seem to be filtered down to the same apparent look when done more-or-less in 'real' fights. And that's regardless of the arts the opponents trained when among equally adept individuals.

So, not denigrating traditional techniques per se. I am saying however that certain ways of training seem to exprss utility quicker and better. When individuals are placed in less stringent environments to showcase techniques, tradition seems less the requiste aspect of that training since function trumps form.

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#407589 - 10/09/08 08:29 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: butterfly]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Well I don't necessarily disagree with what you say - I'm not sure however whether we agree on the degree to which "form" is trumped by "function". In my view there is so much disregard for form that this is counterproductive to function.

Consider the front kick: if it lifts you off the ground and sends you backwards then it has too much push. A traditional front kick shouldn't move you much at all but should instead drop you on the spot. This is knowledge about "form" that is all but lost amongst modern sports fighters. Consider Visible force vs. applied force.

This is knowledge that every good traditional martial artist has. Yet, due to misunderstanding and misconception (and the corresponding rush to disregard traditional form) it is dismissed as "not functional". Just because something doesn't look impressive doesn't mean it isn't effective. Quite the reverse.

Then you get arguments how a front kick is "chambered" and so "telegraphs" or is "slow". Yet if you examine frame by frame the speed of a "teep" you'll see just how much slower and more telegraphed it is. Yes - it creates more displacement, but it is just a bad front kick from an efficiency perspective. It results from trying to get displacement (perhaps because of training with the heavy bag or by trying to get your partner to "lift of the ground") rather than trying to create a hydrostatic shock.

So in summary, modern sports fighters would profit from examining traditional form rather than subscribing to what I consider are flawed assumptions and incomplete understanding.

Yes, traditonal form is highly "stylised". Yes, it cannot be applied literally. But too often the baby is thrown out with the bathwater.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (10/09/08 08:53 PM)
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#407590 - 10/09/08 09:48 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Of course, front kicks and thrust punches are just 2 traditional "forms" that are disregarded. What are erroneously called "blocks" are summarily dismissed - yet I have applied them in hard and fast sparring for almost 3 decades. Again, I don't use the entire basic movement; that is a basic drill to teach you the angle of attack/deflection and groove movement on the correct plane. But I apply the same principle in sparring. See Why blocks DO work.

Part of the problem with many traditional martial artists is that they fail to apply their techniques in a more dynamic / less formal way. The rigidly adhere to "form". This doesn't mean that the form is wrong or bad - just that it is being applied too literally or not being applied at all.

The traditional training methodology has a lot to answer for in this respect. I think a balance between traditional and modern can produce very good results.
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#407591 - 10/10/08 03:43 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: dandjurdjevic]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

Of course, front kicks and thrust punches are just 2 traditional "forms" that are disregarded.




No, not quite "disregarded." I would choose different wording that didn't imply being ignored. I would say that these have less efficiency when trying to use them in a fight against fighters or more adept opponents.

Look at any karate tournament from point, to Kyokushin, to the more robust decendents of these in the K-1 Grand Prixs to kick boxing with MT rules. Round kicks are by far the most utilized. And there is a reason for that.

Thrust punches and front kicks all require stabalized platforms from which to throw them and a target that is in front of the technique's performer. In particular, the front kick also requires a requisite distance to be used effectively. Closing the gap by the opponent jams the kick. When you add lateral movement and have less success in closing off the ring or the movement of the attacker, the angled power of round kicks give the performer more options and, I believe a higher hit rate than front kicks with less chance of being in a compromised position if your fron kick fails to land.

In this case the sister of the front kick seems to be used more often--the pushing kick--which has a quicker delivery and is used to create distance and set up subsequent attacks, but not necessarily as an end to itself as a hard front kick is used.

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#407592 - 10/10/08 04:36 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: butterfly]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Sports are too often used as examples when evaluating the effectiveness of a technique, training method or style.

Boxers should not train kata, they should train boxing (using proven methods for boxing). TMA were not intended for sport use. Front kicks may not work best in sports but they work great for fighting. Jamming a front kick just turns it into a thrusting knee which is a great technique for setting up a throw. Of course, you can't do throws in kick-boxing...

MMA may be the closest thing a sport comes to actual fighting that TMA were designed for, but even that has it's many limitations.

IMO TMA is the best way to train for fighting. If a fighter can learn to stay within a set of rules (unlearn some trained responses), those same skills can be applied for sports like boxing, kickboxing, mma etc... But in my opinion if your goal is to do well in a sport, specialize in that sport and use the proven methods for that sport. If your goal is fighting, train in a TMA. There are cross-over skills for both focuses. But, being great at one will only make a person (at best) good at the other.

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#407593 - 10/10/08 04:50 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: everyone]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

IMO TMA is the best way to train for fighting. If a fighter can learn to stay within a set of rules (unlearn some trained responses), those same skills can be applied for sports like boxing, kickboxing, mma etc...




Your opinion, but why?

Quote:

But in my opinion if your goal is to do well in a sport, specialize in that sport and use the proven methods for that sport. If your goal is fighting, train in a TMA. There are cross-over skills for both focuses. But, being great at one will only make a person (at best) good at the other.




Again, why do you say that? The fighting skills involved in sports like BJJ or MMA are just as real (some would say moreso) than what most get in TMA training. You seem to be implying some secret/hidden power or skillset in TMA that has not been shown to be real in any meaningful way.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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