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#407574 - 10/02/08 11:07 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: iaibear]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
noway man your not gunna convince me cause ive lernt heaps from youtube i just leart some cool moves who needs slow stuff man it sux
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#407575 - 10/04/08 01:15 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: everyone]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
everyone,

You have given me a coherent, textbook explanation of why MA techniques are practiced differently than they are applied. I have been hearing such explanations for a quarter century, and I don't buy them. A circle block is, in my opinion, an example of a technique with virtually no practical value. In fact, I think 99% of TKD blocks have no practical value. If TKD was practiced under even remotely realistic conditions, these kinds of technques would have been dumped long ago.

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#407576 - 10/04/08 08:44 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Yet I apply 'circle blocks' (hiki uke) very successfully in hard and fast sparring.

What you see seem to be using as your framework for understanding tma is the plethora of shallow suburban McDojo or diluted competition forms. Your arguments re front kicks suggest to me that you have never fought or trained with a tma who could apply his/her techniques correctly. Granted, this is almost certainly because traditional techniques take a great deal longer to learn. But work, they do.

Tma are, in many ways, spectacularly unsuitable for popularisation; they require a high level of fine motor skill and hence years of study. In this context I am not in the least surprised to see that what people popularly regard as tma is so heavily diluted; it contains the general macro movements without any understanding of the details that make it work.

Then you get 'well-intentioned' revisions that lead the technique further astray and still only 'sort of' work - ITF sine wave is just one such revision of what was originally a functional method of Southern Chinese/Okinawan stepping training.

I must stress that I am not impugning the skill of those who do ITF; I just don't believe 'sine wave' value-adds one iota.

Whether it be blocks, stepping or front kicks; a missing detail renders a 'racehorse' lame, whereupon the poor beast is redesigned as a camel - and is never brought out to race anyway...


Edited by dandjurdjevic (10/04/08 09:31 PM)

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#407577 - 10/05/08 09:39 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: dandjurdjevic]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Dan,

The TKD I learned was hardly "diluted." I stuided ITF style TKD under the late Han Cha Kyo, a member of General Choi's original TKD demonstration team. He ran a dojang just off Devon Ave (the neighborhood where I grew up) on Chicago's far north side. Han's TKD was about as traditional as it gets.

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#407578 - 10/05/08 10:23 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I admire TKD practitioners, but they don't apply any circle blocks in the way they were designed. Nor does the karate style from which TKD is descended (shotokan). I also admire practitioners of that style. There are good points to both arts, but knowledge about how to apply the circle block (or any other block) is largely absent from them. I apply my blocks - I don't just practise them in the air, then go about doing something entirely different.

So the lineage of what you studied doesn't change my view one iota in relation to the "dilution" of certain techniques such as "circle blocks" (even if there is much to admire in those styles and their practitioners can be very effective in their own way).

Put another way, they are effective despite the misapplication of "circle blocks" etc. They have evolved other ways of dealing with attacks. The "circle blocks" and other blocks they do in the air/patterns have largely zero application in their sparring (if you doubt me, ask a TKD or shotokan practitioner when he/she last applied any sword hand or rising block in sparring). We apply traditional techniques.

Dilution has a long history - within China (in the internal arts as they became progressively more esoteric and less practical and in Shaolin as they became more dance-like) and then to Okinawa, then to Japan, then to Korea and now to the West. This has greatly accelerated since the attempt to "popularise" what was never meant to be popular.

Arts have evolved other ways of dealing with problems brought by this dilution (including my own karate) but techniques still hang around in forms in their diluted, unused form. I've made it my business to research and apply traditional techniques. I probably don't have it "right" (lots of people disagree with my conclusions) but no one can accuse me of being anything other than thorough in my research and scientific in my analysis.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (10/05/08 10:31 PM)
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#407579 - 10/05/08 11:12 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I should make it clear that I acknowledge that all traditional arts (including my own) have become diluted through popularisation and too little "live" application.

Faced with this one can either -
(a) ditch all the traditional techniques as worthless; or
(b) research why they aren't working and apply them.

As I've said, I have my own views on how the techniques should look. I can and do apply them in hard and fast sparring, so I can't be entirely wrong.

Invariably many of my contemporaries have come to similar conclusions (sometimes different but not in any dramatic sense) - be they in shotokan, tkd, aikido, wing chun etc.

We have found that they work - usually with a minor detail or in a certain context. Remove a link in the chain and it no longer works in a live environment. (See my article "Why blocks DO work" for an example of my argument on "circle" and other blocks.)
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#407580 - 10/06/08 01:41 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: dandjurdjevic]
everyone Offline
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Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Fileboy,

You had practiced TKD for many years. I'm sure you were trained using traditional drills and techniques. Now you may not feel that these were important. Your skills are to the point of refinement where you no longer practice the full movements. But without your traditional foundation, you may never have developed the application skills you now command. You may think that there is a shortcut, but that's just theory.

Michael

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#407581 - 10/06/08 08:51 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: everyone]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I agree absolutely Michael.
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#407582 - 10/07/08 11:33 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: everyone]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Everyone,

I think the reverse could be said as well. That functional skills have been developed sans any foundational background in traditional arts which first begs the question of training traditionally to get realistic use.

Further, that when you dump those vetted in traditional systems and place them into environments where the conceit is not to fight folks the same way who have similar traditional training, it seems that much of the tradition goes out the window in use, or doesn't bear much fruit in the fight.

One can say that a hip chambered punch has many rewards when trained traditionally, yet in full contact, open competitions allowing either kickboxing rules or stand-up to ground, I have yet to see one applied. But of course, it doesn't mean that either of the competitors doesn't have to use this traditional technique. Only, if you accomodate it, then you open up your head for someone else's fist. So again, it begs the question of training something a particular way that you wouldn't apply the way you train it when used against people who are margingally trained in less tradtional formats.

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#407583 - 10/07/08 12:06 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: butterfly]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Butterfly,

I think burried in this long thread we covered this before. Simple kicking/punching styles, IMO, don't really need the same training process. However, they do have their own drills to develop skills that also may not be practiced like they are applied (like hitting a speed bag).

The TMA use large movements to train complicated subtlties they will use in application. I would never expect to chamber a fist to my hip in a fight, but training that way teaches some valuable principles. The principles from chambering a punch initially teach a student propper form for a punch and working both arms individually. Eventually that same motion can be modified for blocks and even throws.

TMA has received a reputation for being ineffective only because many do not get past the beginner stage of learning the principles. Once the principles are incorporated into application, the advantage is in the details.

It takes much longer to learn TMA than to go right into application. IMO, it is well worth the extra time in perfecting the details. People can learn to fight well without TMA. I feel they would be better had they started with a TMA.

Michael

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