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#407514 - 09/23/08 01:15 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Taison]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Taison, I agree that this technique is indeed found in the kata (or waza) of various arts. Although, I'm also fairly sure that the Judo kata in particular actually have a lot of pre-war Aikibudo (Aikido) in them, as Tomiki played a significant role in their development. On this though, I'd have to defer to someone who knows more about Tomiki or about Judo.

However, going back to the essence of your point, yes these techniques are found in various TMA waza. I'm not really trying to say that Aikido is specifically being used--just that some of the techniques prevalent in it have been used. Further, and most importantly, the first technique is an example of one that is impossible to train fully alive, yet also quite successful (apprently) in a ring environment. As a matter of fact, perhaps too much so (alot of damage was done to his opponent).

Many people have in the past voiced the opinion that these techniques, and standing joint locks in general are difficult, low percentage techniques. Although this certainly applies to some of them (kotegashi/wrist techniques from standing for instance) what I'm suggesting here is that this is not the case. Many of these locks/dislocations/hyperextensions do work in a live environent. However, many can not be trained live without serious damage to your partner.

Also, there has been voiced, not in this thread but others, the opinion that Kano 'only took what worked' from tradional Judo and left the rest out. I disagree with this. I think in fact that many of these techniques work TOO WELL, and were therefore removed because the chance of injury was far to great. Many site the early shiai tournaments as examples of the sportive overcoming tradional; but, in fact, all ryuha's had techniques that were regarded as unfair and illegal to use in shiai. They were judged as too dangerous, as they caused immediate, and often irrepairable damage to the opponent. So although Kano's Judo was vicotorious in terms of creating the best environment to practice and nurture shiai-based skill, I don't think we should dismiss these techniques based on that.

Getting the point, I think that the techniques found in Aikido and other TMA have not been researched nearly enough by MMAist's. Just as Aikido has much to learn (from my opinion) regarding the training method's of modern MMA, I think MMA has lot to learn from those tradional Budo's which fall outside of sporting diciplines.

So in the end, no, those examples I gave do not validate 'Aikido' in the tradional sense. But just a Muay Thai roundhouse used outside it's tradional context and within the new MMA context helps to validate the technique (whether that person has studied tradional Muay Thai or not), so to should these 'Aikido' techniques--whether directly learned from Aikido or not.

A really good example of standing locks/dislocations being used in sportive environments is the anceint Greek sport of Pankration. These techniques are often depicted, and from that we can theorise that they were often used successfully.


--Chris


Edited by Ames (09/23/08 01:18 PM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#407515 - 09/23/08 02:36 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: butterfly]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
butterfly,

I hear this kind of thing all the time: "You can't say X thing about martial art Y because the way one individual does X may not be the way all individuals do X."

I have two major problems with this line of arguement:

1) People ONLY resort to these kinds of arguments when their art, or some feature of their art, is being criticized. When, for example, someone says, "aikido is impractical," aikidoka leap out of the woodwork claiming "you can't generalize from just one school" or "you can't generalize from just a few practioners." However, when practioners are praising, or simply discussing, this or that aspect of their art, their concerns about overgeneralization magically disappear.

2) Although some variation certainly exists between schools and individuals purporting to teach and/or practice the same art, I think the degree of that variation is wildly exaggerated. Visit any 10 taekwon do schools at random, and I promise you the similarities between them will far outweigh the differences. Train with any 10 TKD practioners at random, and I promise you their kicking skills will be far better developed than their wrestling skills.

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#407516 - 09/23/08 04:51 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
fileboy, you raise some good points. Now here's mine:

If Muay Thai is validated by the success of its techniques in MMA, why not Aikido?

'Muay Thai' itself is not in MMA. Just some of the techniques. Although there are some fighters that come from a Muay Thai background, there are many others who have never studied the art. They have only studied the techniques. Same for BJJ, many simply call what they do groundwork.

Or, for another example, let's say tommorow everyone decided to only study Sambo. Would everyone say, "Well just because it LOOKS like a BJJ armbar, doesn't mean BJJ is better. Sambo is obviously the best, because that's what all the top fighters study."
In essence that's the line of reasoning I'm hearing.

"It doesn't matter if those techniques work, he could have learned them from any art..."

Give me a break. No single art is represented in MMA, only portions of those arts. No single art has the 'proper' training paradigm--that's why a new one had to be invented: MMA. Someone who studies only BJJ in this day and age is as likely to lose to a trained Mixed Martial Artists as an Aikidoka who has only studied Aikido.

What I'm trying to get at is that many facets of Aikido are indeed workable in an MMA setting. Very few have bothered to try though because they are too busy following the party line. Ironic that this is the same accusation that is leveled at those in the TMA.


--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#407517 - 09/23/08 04:56 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Ames]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
great posts Ames!

Quote:

Getting the point, I think that the techniques found in Aikido and other TMA have not been researched nearly enough by MMAist's. Just as Aikido has much to learn (from my opinion) regarding the training method's of modern MMA, I think MMA has lot to learn from those tradional Budo's which fall outside of sporting diciplines.






This quote is worthy of its' own thread!!

Do you mind if I steal it?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#407518 - 09/23/08 05:27 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Taison]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
Taison
"Sir Bansalot" wrote

Note to mods; I'm not art-bashing. I'm bashing the training methods, and the constant deflection of a simple question; why do they always claim to be too 'dangerous' for sport? "



That was a mongo diatribe Taison!!!!

Do you do MMA? The Dojang I train out of does…and they are HUGE into Muay Thai to boot… Zip me a PM and I’ll be glad to give you the web site. (Only in order to show you that I’m not from some weak school…that plays instead of trains…your welcome to explore us further…..

We have wrestlers, Jujitsuka …etc etc. .All come to spar and roll with us..

Do I do MMA? Nope… Do a sparr guys that do MMa? Heck YA! All the time! Every time I get a chance! Can I pull off Aiki jujutsu techniques on MMA guys …Heck YA! Would I? HECK NO! Why would I want to attack someone in that manner in a sporting environment? (I'm not even adding in that they would know how to counter the techniques...)

Are we talking about the same thing…I wonder?

Aiki Jujutsu techniques are designed to maim and kill

Hopefully, I’m not talking to a guy sold on the prowess of all thing MMA (they tend to believe they are forging new ground in martial arts and everything that came before them not tested in an octagon is crap)……Once I get talking to them (internet MMA aficionados) I usually find out that they don’t even know what a basic real Ippon Seoi Nage does.. (No…its not just a throw..... the sporting version is a throw.... the actual Aiki jujutsu version is an arm break that results in a throw…. Big difference… I used a basic Judo technique (that stemmed from Aiki jujutsu) to for simplistic reasons.



I don’t think without seeing or feeling it done, you would understand how Akiki jujutsu techniques are pulled offensively.

Do you even know what a shiho nage is?


What? You think someone who is proficient will stand there and wait for an attack…Lol….Not in Hapkido…(I’m assuming it’s the same in Aikido or Diatoryu etc..) We come in punching and kicking just like everybody else….What?…MMA guys don’t block? They do at my Dojang heck… I start getting hit I start covering up…Once you cover up…Shiho nage! Does right … the shoulder is dislocated and the elbow broken… Game over it’s a show stopper! …would I ever pull it as its devise to be? Heck no! why? SPORT


SPORT! Once again SPORT!

These techniques are no different in efficacy and effectiveness than any Shime waza, Ne waza etc etc..found in Jujitsu ect…

You can say what you want…But…I don’t even entertain… the nonsense your trying to sell.. No matter what you say I’ll come back with the same stuff I stated before...why because I know… Which is different that saying I think or I seen...or I've read... I have experienced it

Big difference..........

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#407519 - 09/23/08 06:38 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: GansuKid]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Aiki Jujutsu techniques are designed to maim and kill





I don't buy the whole "too deadly" argument. It's been hashed out and disproven.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#407520 - 09/23/08 10:08 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: BrianS]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
Hashed out and disproved....

I just don't accept your realty no matter how you spin it. I'm too old and have seen too much to be impressed with Internet bravado or multiple internet youtube links...or quip lines like "I don't buy the whole "too deadly" argument. It's been hashed out and disproved"....

Nor am I going to let you define my premise ( you do know what a premise is....?

....there are arts out there that are not pliable to sport... that's the facts.

Arts stemming from Aiki-jujutsu (which has a long history of being highly effective...another fact.... is one of those arts

Again... your probably one of those guys who don't even no what a shiho nage is, let alone know how its applied offensively... or something as basic as a judo ippon Seoi Nage and what the real seio nage is ... Because you never seen it done on Youtube…

What's the next move? Oh…I know…"State: because I can't find people in a MMA venue on youtube performing Aiki-jujutsu techniques therefore I'm full of it....?

Lol.. Again these techniques are illegal in most if not all MMA venues. That’s why you don't see them....not because they don't work...

Illegal you do know the definition of illegal,,,right? You do understand that most Aiki jujtsu is found to be illegal in MMA…Right?

From here on out….
Anything posted in repley to my words I’m just going to copy and paste what I said above as my retort. Because I've stated what I know. Again its not what I believe. Its not what I seen on youtube or spike tv...but what I've experienced...


Edited by GansuKid (09/23/08 10:15 PM)

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#407521 - 09/23/08 10:34 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Ames]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
Quote:

Taison,

However, going back to the essence of your point, yes these techniques are found in various TMA waza. I'm not really trying to say that Aikido is specifically being used--just that some of the techniques prevalent in it have been used. Further, and most importantly, the first technique is an example of one that is impossible to train fully alive, yet also quite successful (apprently) in a ring environment. As a matter of fact, perhaps too much so (alot of damage was done to his opponent).

Many people have in the past voiced the opinion that these techniques, and standing joint locks in general are difficult, low percentage techniques. Although this certainly applies to some of them (kotegashi/wrist techniques from standing for instance) what I'm suggesting here is that this is not the case. Many of these locks/dislocations/hyperextensions do work in a live environent. However, many can not be trained live without serious damage to your partner.

Also, there has been voiced, not in this thread but others, the opinion that Kano 'only took what worked' from tradional Judo and left the rest out. I disagree with this. I think in fact that many of these techniques work TOO WELL, and were therefore removed because the chance of injury was far to great. Many site the early shiai tournaments as examples of the sportive overcoming tradional; but, in fact, all ryuha's had techniques that were regarded as unfair and illegal to use in shiai. They were judged as too dangerous, as they caused immediate, and often irrepairable damage to the opponent. So although Kano's Judo was vicotorious in terms of creating the best environment to practice and nurture shiai-based skill, I don't think we should dismiss these techniques based on that.

Getting the point, I think that the techniques found in Aikido and other TMA have not been researched nearly enough by MMAist's. Just as Aikido has much to learn (from my opinion) regarding the training method's of modern MMA, I think MMA has lot to learn from those tradional Budo's which fall outside of sporting diciplines.



A really good example of standing locks/dislocations being used in sportive environments is the anceint Greek sport of Pankration. These techniques are often depicted, and from that we can theorise that they were often used successfully.
--Chris




Exactly Chris.... that's what I'm trying to get at when I say Aiki Jujutsu is not pliable to sport!.. Also its well known that Kano's top students (the one's who participated in the legendary match at the Tokyo Police Dept studied in Aiki-Jujutsu. In this match "as we all have read" people were maimed! That’s about as serious as you get…and far more realistic than any MMA bout I’ve ever seen…

… What’s funny is I can see people doubting this because they can't find it on youtube.


Edited by GansuKid (09/23/08 10:37 PM)

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#407522 - 09/23/08 11:02 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: GansuKid]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Hashed out and disproved....

I just don't accept your realty no matter how you spin it. I'm too old and have seen too much to be impressed with Internet bravado or multiple internet youtube links...or quip lines like "I don't buy the whole "too deadly" argument. It's been hashed out and disproved"....




I can see that you clearly don't accept reality,lol.



Quote:

Nor am I going to let you define my premise ( you do know what a premise is....?





Do you know what condescending is?

Quote:

....there are arts out there that are not pliable to sport... that's the facts.

Arts stemming from Aiki-jujutsu (which has a long history of being highly effective...another fact.... is one of those arts




yes, there art many arts that don't do well in a sporting environment, however it's not because they are too deadly, it's because they don't have groundfighting or adequate striking skills.

Quote:

Again... your probably one of those guys who don't even no what a shiho nage is, let alone know how its applied offensively... or something as basic as a judo ippon Seoi Nage and what the real seio nage is ... Because you never seen it done on Youtube…




I could care less about what is posted on youtube. I could care less about how you want to paint a picture of me either. I happen to be a goju guy that has a little experience in many arts. It's the way I train that sets me apart though. BTW...how do japanese termed techniques give you a "one up"?? That's pretty ignorant.

Quote:

What's the next move? Oh…I know…"State: because I can't find people in a MMA venue on youtube performing Aiki-jujutsu techniques therefore I'm full of it....?




Again, what's the deal with youtube? I don't get my info there. I happen to have been training since I was a teenager.

Quote:

Lol.. Again these techniques are illegal in most if not all MMA venues. That’s why you don't see them....not because they don't work...

Illegal you do know the definition of illegal,,,right? You do understand that most Aiki jujtsu is found to be illegal in MMA…Right?




Do you know the definition of condescending butthole?

Here are some basic rules:
Quote:

Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.





I think #29 is your basic aikijutsu technique that's illegal.

Quote:

From here on out….
Anything posted in repley to my words I’m just going to copy and paste what I said above as my retort. Because I've stated what I know. Again its not what I believe. Its not what I seen on youtube or spike tv...but what I've experienced...





Great. Remain closeminded with your too deadly techniques, that'll help.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#407523 - 09/24/08 12:07 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: GansuKid]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Quote:

Also its well known that Kano's top students (the one's who participated in the legendary match at the Tokyo Police Dept studied in Aiki-Jujutsu.




Is it well known? Not at all, no. As a matter of fact it's never been proven. This is really a hypothesis some have made with little evidence to back it up. Saigo Shiro may have learned something from his father, but no one knows what. In any case, him learning Daito Ryu at 16-17 years old is pretty unlikely.

Also, I'd advise you to keep an open mind on this forum. Please check your p.m.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (09/24/08 12:11 AM)
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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