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#407454 - 09/15/08 05:02 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Quote:

They prefer a collaborative approach where uke and nage act together to work through the proper execution of techniques. Decide for yourself whether such an approach would develop practical self-defense skills.




While the kicks in the original video may have been poorly executed, unrealistic, etc, one thing that a drill like that can help develop is timing...and actually timing can be pretty important in the context of self defense. Would it be nice if there was aikido that had all out knock down drag out bashing in it?...sure...but to write aikido off as completely unrealistic I think is too extreme a perspective. Boxers have punching drills,etc. Judoka have throwing drills such as uchikomi, and stegeiko(sp?), etc. These drills are not useless. They are preparation for the "real thing."

Peace

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#407455 - 09/15/08 07:16 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: tomh777]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Jim,

Quite frankly I haven't come across any aikido video demonstrating any sort of effective response against kicks, much less with any sort of effective kicking in it.

While I do appreciate some of these are demos, and ukes tend to "wait" for the finishing technique, IMO, they are generally poorly done. Particularly, the Tissier video, where uke is not really looking to land the kick, and then proceeds to "wait" for Tissier (whose timing is WAY off in some instances) for the throw.

I used to do TKD & karate (we also trained kicks and kick defenses in jujitsu), and honestly, none of the kicks in Prizewriter's video examples would have any sort of real impact. But I'm sure most of you with any sort of striking background can quite easily discern that.

I also appreciate the value of some of these examples as spatial and timing drills - no problem with that. But I stand by my initial assessment.

FWIW, any Aikido demo involving some sort of "response"/"defense" to kicks are largely contrived examples to demonstrate spatial and timing assessment skills for the initial entry/turning out of the path of the kick, and nothing more. Both uke and nage know what kick is coming and what the "response" will be.

IMO, the only thing one should be working on in any sort of kick defense is the entry and timing - moving into the opponent's space where the opponent has no power, and looking to off-balance immediately. And if you're working with the opponent's centerline and balance, you don't need any "technique" for that. Anything that "looks" like a "real" technique is purely incidental, and if it happens, it's merely icing on the cake.

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#407456 - 09/16/08 07:17 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: eyrie]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Eyrie,

As you have more MA experience, I have a question: Do you think that, in general, there is a weakness in pre-emptive training vs. kicks in traditional martial arts, or do you think that Aikido, an art that by and large doesn't practice kicking, suffers more when training against kicks as kicks aren't part of the training (genralizing here).

For instance, here is a Wado Ryu karate clip where the kihon being practiced involves uke kicking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ9TuyEDWjQ

Do you think that Karate pre-emptive drills are "better" at defending against this sort of thing as kicking is a regular part of karate, whereas in Aikido it isn't? Or do you think that their isn't much benefit in any sort of pre-emptive drills when it comes to kicking?

Again, I would say I have very limited kicking experience, so you have to excuse my ignorance!

Although addressed to Eyrie, anyone else chip in on this as well if you like.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#407457 - 09/16/08 08:01 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Prizewriter]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
First off Prize. I don't have more MA experience. I just think about it a lot.

Quote:

Do you think that, in general, there is a weakness in pre-emptive training vs. kicks in traditional martial arts, or do you think that Aikido, an art that by and large doesn't practice kicking, suffers more when training against kicks as kicks aren't part of the training (genralizing here).


I don't understand what you mean by "pre-emptive training". Can you please clarify? I'm not certain what other Aikido schools teach/don't teach. I can only make limited comments based on limited observations of something. Some aikido schools do teach kicks, some better than others. Some don't.

Quote:

Do you think that Karate pre-emptive drills are "better" at defending against this sort of thing as kicking is a regular part of karate, whereas in Aikido it isn't? Or do you think that their isn't much benefit in any sort of pre-emptive drills when it comes to kicking?


Against I'm not sure what you mean by "pre-emptive drill". I see things like this example of kihon kumite (which IMO is basic 1-2-3 step "sparring", as the name suggests), as an exercise to teach ma-ai, taisabaki and timing + some sort of response/technique. I'm not sure what style of Aikido you do, but it would be similar to what most Aikidoka know as kihon waza - which is essentially drilling the same principles, albeit in a different format.

Kicking is more or less similar to hand striking. Mae/yoko geri is like jodan/gedan tsuki. Mawashi geri is like yokomen uchi. The only difference is it's a leg you're dealing with, as well as a different ma-ai.

In any case, it's a means to connect to their center... It's also much easier to obtain kuzushi if they're standing on one leg. The entry is trickier, and timing is paramount. I'd just work on getting to their centerline and into their space. The rest is relatively easy.

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#407458 - 09/16/08 08:16 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: eyrie]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Sorry my bad. By pre-determined is really what I meant, as in Tori knows whats coming.

I am aware that in aikido there are similar training drills to that of arts like karate. What I meant to ask was that, in your experience/opinion, are the pre-determined drills in karate (just taking karate as an example) any better at defending vs kicks than those in Aikido? If there is a difference, is that down to the fact that Karate-ka train to kick as part of karate, as oppose to Aikido where they don't (once again, generalizing here)? In other words, how much does the ability to deliver a good kick count in a pre-determined drill count in the effectiveness of that drill?
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#407459 - 09/16/08 08:35 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Prizewriter]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Sorry my bad. By pre-determined is really what I meant, as in Tori knows whats coming.

I am aware that in aikido there are similar training drills to that of arts like karate. What I meant to ask was that, in your experience/opinion, are the pre-determined drills in karate (just taking karate as an example) any better at defending vs kicks than those in Aikido? If there is a difference, is that down to the fact that Karate-ka train to kick as part of karate, as oppose to Aikido where they don't (once again, generalizing here)? In other words, how much does the ability to deliver a good kick count in a pre-determined drill count in the effectiveness of that drill?


IMO, it's useful as a learning tool initially. Learning to kick properly is necessary. Learning how to deliver momentum thru a kick is indispensable. Learning to control/pull your kick at the last minute in case tori doesn't move, is also important. Learning how to deal with the angle, trajectory and potential impact force of a kick is important. So, from an initial learning perspective, contrived drills such as these are important. Just like contrived kihon waza are important.

Eventually, though you'd want to discard the form of the drill and just "move"/respond. That's when I hope you were learning to read your uke, when you were practicing those drills.

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#407460 - 09/16/08 01:47 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: Prizewriter]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Self-defense may not be the only reason to do anything, but it is a major reason people decide to study martial arts. For people intersted in self-defense, a martial art that never tests its techniques under realistic conditions is suspect. Sorry, but that is just common sense skepticism.

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#407461 - 09/16/08 02:26 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
I agree with that. But there are very few martial arts/schools that train under realistic conditions IMHO. Unless it's some sort of MMA that also includes weapons work, to my mind it isn't going to be realistic (or close to reality as you can get) or it will be lacking in a certain area.

Is most Aikido training based in realism from a SD perspective? Yes and no. It won't work all the time, but it won't NOT work all the time either if you see what I am saying!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#407462 - 09/16/08 07:06 PM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Self-defense may not be the only reason to do anything, but it is a major reason people decide to study martial arts. For people intersted in self-defense, a martial art that never tests its techniques under realistic conditions is suspect. Sorry, but that is just common sense skepticism.




Define "realistic conditions"? Someone really trying to smack the cr@p out of you? Multiple-attackers king-hitting you and then proceeding to kick your head in as you're lying on the ground in a pool of your own blood? Someone trying to stick you with a real knife? Someone pulling a gun on you and attempting to rape you?

All of this, while in a "training" environment? Puhlese...

All training scenarios are contrived to some extent... even ones that claim to teach "self-defense". Is someone wearing a red-suit "realistic"? Does the man in the red-suit respond/react in the same way that a "real" assailant would? Or is the red-man an artifact, designed to allow the participant to safely (for the red-man) "go all out"? Is that a "realistic condition"?

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#407463 - 09/17/08 12:42 AM Re: Hmm... Okay.... [Re: fileboy2002]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Quote:

For people intersted in self-defense, a martial art that never tests its techniques under realistic conditions is suspect. Sorry, but that is just common sense skepticism.




I agree. However, even your judo falls short of that standard. In randori you are not allowed to kick, punch, bite, gouge, or use guns or knives. Consequently, even though randori is essentially full contact it still falls short as a traning ground for "realistic" self defense. In judo the only time kicks, punches, knives, and guns are defended against is in the goshin jitsu no kata. And going by your standards of "realistic" self defense the goshin jitsu no kata is nothing more than a series of pre-arranged attacks done by a compliant uke. My point is not to dis judo (I'm still convinced it's the coolest sport in the world). It just seems odd to continue to bash aikido rather than recognizing and embracing the common principles that judo and aikido share.

Peace

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