Well then I guess we agree on many of the same points then. A skilled MMA fighter can defend themselves better then a less skilled TMA fighter. MMA and other competition does tend to increase skill level.

I would never rely upon a "finishing technique" to end a fight but that will be my goal (so I assume it will not work, cut the technique short, and keep sparring in practice).

And for Butterfly's points, I presented my arguements in a very black/white for sake of arguement (to present a point). Sport and self-defense are not polar opposites as I may have implied. But I still think intent and what techniques one chooses to focus on will define whether one is practicing a sport or self-defense.

This thread started out focusing on effectiveness of Aikido techniques. The principles of the techniques are sound. They also are generally not suitable for MMA or other sports (but they are not intended for sport).

Dan and Everyone,

First, Michael, you're right. This topic was about Aikido principles and got a bit side tracked. And no biggie about irritations real or perceived in the comments.

This was an honest appraisal of our understandings and an argument worth the time. As I am fond of saying, what fun would it be to watch a game and everyone roots for the same team?

First, yeah this discussion got sidetracked...but then again it's been lively and I've seen no reason to shut the thread down.

Matt, I'm not saying that by including grappling the odds were unfairly stacked against the TMA fighters in the early UFC's. What I'm saying is that the odds were stacked in the Gracie's favour because they did not include high level representatives of other grappling arts (such as Judo).

Now, that being said, I still think the Gracie's would have taken those early UFC's because, as you said, BJJ grew out of Vale Tudo and thus had the most experiance under this rule set. TMA had zero.

I'm also not disargeeing really with the thrust of your agrument, namely that MMA is a useful art for 'street self defence'. I've sparred all out and grappled with MMA practioners, and anyone who beleive an eye- gouge or an elbow to the back of the head is enough to stop these guys is delusional. Hopefully that delusion won't get them killed.

On the other hand, I think TMA offers many things which MMA doesnt'. Not everyone is interested in becoming the toughest mo'fo on the street. There are alot of other perfectly valid reasons to get into the martial arts.

I recently read an article in a backissue of 'Journal of Asian Martial Arts' where several studies were discussed which posit the theory that certain activies alter the personality of the athlete. It was shown that without a proper ethical framework, practioners of certain methods of combative training are far more likely to engage in violence outside the dojo; whereas those who engage in certain TMA are far less likely. I think Aikido, in this context, might make sense for a lot of people to de-stress and become calmer people. I'll dig up the issue and reference it directly when I'm back home.

All that being said, the main thing I was saying in this thread has not really been answered by anyone. I showed videos of techniques that are written off as 'low percentage' working in an MMA environment in hopes that MMA practioners might realize that there is a wealth of knowledge contained in TMA which may make their fighting abilities greater.

At the same time, TMA people need a better delivery system in order for their techniques to work. What we all need to do is to realize that both of our arts can be enhanced by an openminded appraisal of the 'other'.

What I'm begining to see is MMA people 'stopping' at the arts which are already used in MMA competition (greco-roman, boxing, MT, BJJ). This is unfortunate, because there are many techniques which can be taken from other arts and succesfully used in competition.

--Chris

I wanna chime in to to say Ames is absolutely correct whe he says not everyone interested in studying martial arts wants to be a bad-ass. One reason I prefer to study judo rather than MMA is that at age 39, I don't want to get punched in the face 500 times a week.

What makes MMA so attractive to one group of prospective students is the same thing that makes another group look elsewhere. I hope the MA community remains a big tent where many people can find their niche.