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#407157 - 09/12/08 08:06 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: MattJ]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

I'm not being obtuse. Photos are right there in the thread. We can discuss whatever ones you feel are noteworthy.




I didn't see any photos in the post Matt, where am I missing them?

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#407158 - 09/12/08 08:33 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
My summary as to the "internal pushing" business:

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/09/grounding.html
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#407159 - 09/12/08 09:30 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Zach_Zinn]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I didn't see any photos in the post Matt, where am I missing them?




Change the display mode from flat to threaded. There are quite a few pics on the thread. I have PM'd Victor so that he might be able to explain what he did - if he is willing to. Remember, he would not explain it to any of us at the time. This was a while back, and I no longer remember enough detail to be able to describe it.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#407160 - 09/12/08 09:58 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Zach:

<<I just want to have a reasonable discussion (and hopefully get some understanding of the physics myself -

And you're asking among ~this group~ because why...?)

Jeff

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#407161 - 09/12/08 10:11 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Ronin1966]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Hello Zach:

<<I just want to have a reasonable discussion (and hopefully get some understanding of the physics myself -

And you're asking among ~this group~ because why...?)

Jeff




Heh just for fun, and maybe to alleviate some of the tension surrounding the other 'internal' threads.

I don't expect any big training revelations about anything from a forum....

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#407162 - 09/12/08 10:16 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Zach:

I wish I had the scientific background to be capable of articulating these ideas in those terms. Sadly I do not...

The standing postures, and their ability to absorb the push-tackle with "impunity" (ie unmoved) is obviously a structural thing. The wrong position, or the incorrect execution and the effect will obviously not be the same. It explains very much why changing anything re: kata is a "fatal error"... unless of course said change is done for a very specific reason(s) and you or I know why we are doing so

If not then we get haphazard results...

The ability to withstand the push I would think revolved (literally) around our ability to diffuse the incoming force. Such that I do not take it (the attack) with my torso but with my arms, absorbing a bit, and my torso deflecting the direction of the attack, a bit, and drop the weight of my body with a (tilt/tucking) my hips-pelvis a bit.

Any/all of which combined to someone not knowing what to watch or, not watching darned carefully will never see it, or any part of it for that matter.

Consider if I only think in terms of the forward momentum as the source for "power" I won't have the background, the awareness to think in terms of small redirection(s).

Merely my opinion, I could surely be mistaken...
Jeff

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#407163 - 09/12/08 10:27 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Change the display mode from flat to threaded. There are quite a few pics on the thread. I have PM'd Victor so that he might be able to explain what he did - if he is willing to. Remember, he would not explain it to any of us at the time. This was a while back, and I no longer remember enough detail to be able to describe it.


See, why couldn't you have said that to me earlier? Instead of being deliberately antagonistic? I betcha (big $$$ if I had it) that Victor was showing an aspect of exactly what we're attempting to discuss here.

So, again, my question, what was this 'something' he made you do, what small changes did he make, and what do you think he was trying to show you? There's a logical explanation for it. And I betcha it's not friggin' mystical.

BTW, all these "ki" tests are basically demonstrating, more or less, aspects of the same thing... basic physics.

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#407164 - 09/13/08 05:14 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: eyrie]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Matt and everyone.

First Erie no amount of $$$$ makes me do anything, I've only taught for free for 30 years, which allows me to teach what and when I choose....

When I met Matt and the gang we were just getting to meet one another and I guess I did suggest a few thoughts on how I train.

What Matt saw as a trick (from a one time perspective) wasn't meant as one, just a tool to let someone feel when they're doing their technique incorrectly. I touched them and they fell out of balance, not because of my magic touch but because there was a structural flaw in their technique.

Done in a relative static situtation it looks like a trick, but if we were fighting and I saw that mistake and attacked against it, the results would be more dramatic, IMO.

The key isn't some great internal training, but that they have to actually do the technique as it was designed and the flaw isn't there, and the value of deep kata training is to work to eliminate those flaws at all times.

My knowledge began 15 years into my tai chi studies when my instructor did the same to me and then explained the framework he used (I've met several other instructors, with entirely different frameworks who do the same thing, for while their took kit approaches it differently, the body still works the same.)

In concept is is related to the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtYDJ_XDVRU and the sanchin video. but then it's related to everything, even how you eat soup.

I can't explain something that must be experienced, but I can describe that you need to feel how weak a mistake leaves you (and the framework of the tool does that) and how much more powerful you are when you don't make that mistake.

Then constant drive to perfect movement and alignment result in increased power in your blocks, strikes and kicks. All external nothing internal in the least.

The flip side is with expanding undestanding you learn to see mistakes in others and in turn can attack into those mistakes instead of just blasting away blindly.

It also allows you to form evaluations of anyone's performance from an objective standard. A black belt performing a form with a mistake that can be exploited must be lower in score, nothing subjective from your point of view.

The 'trick' Matt experienced is just the wakeup call that soemthing needs to be changed.

There is not one answer for one system, all methods of movement can be done more effective or less effective, and to my way of thinking more is better.

Matt, there is nothing magical about what I do, just trained effort, and a student working to the point you must explain it to them <GRIN>.

BTW with 30 years of tai chi behind me I find nothing internal about it. Never once has my instructor and I talked about Chi. The Chi experience exists in the experience of our effectiveness, but being personal cannot be shared outside of experiencing it

IMVHO
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#407165 - 09/13/08 05:32 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Victor Smith]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Well said Victor.
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#407166 - 09/13/08 05:34 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Victor Smith]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thanks for the very informative post Victor.

As I suspected, it wasn't "chi". And there was nothing mystical, nor "internal" about the whole affair. I figured it had something to do with structural alignment, and how a small "shift" changes the dynamics of receiving and negating a push.

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