FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 31 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
SenseiGregT, sagat, JFawkes, pluckysaga39, sgtdemeo
22911 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
AndyLA 5
Dobbersky 5
Ed_Morris 4
ergees 3
futsaowingchun 3
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
Yesterday at 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
Recent Posts
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
Yesterday at 03:51 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
08/29/14 10:50 PM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/28/14 02:39 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:58 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
08/16/14 04:59 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by VDJ
08/15/14 05:46 PM
Forum Stats
22911 Members
36 Forums
35573 Topics
432484 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 21 of 24 < 1 2 ... 19 20 21 22 23 24 >
Topic Options
#407337 - 10/07/08 02:25 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Gavin]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Ironically, I also see all ma as part of one continuum. All martial arts can produce the same results, and in terms of 'efficient' technique I think they should. I incline to Cord's philosophy more than you all realise.

But I find that few people understand the pragmatic, technical approach the 3 ima, and how their different perspective can give fresh insight into 'efficient delivery'. These arts are too often dismissed - either as impractical or, on this thread, as 'indistingishable'. They might well be in the case of top exponents who all reach the same destination. But the rest might just profit from examining them rather than dismissing them with: 'I do that stuff already'.

Otherwise, I have sparred with people who are supremely 'internal' (in the 'loose' sense you are all insistent upon using that term - at least as far as I understand your meaning) without having studied any of the ima of China, or aikido etc.
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

Top
#407338 - 10/07/08 02:29 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Gavin]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Graham is a legend- was/is he a nice guy to talk to? Did you let him hit you just to see what it felt like?
An old friend of mine now runs the DC boxing club in cambridge- it is geared purely towards juniors, and run at non profit to ensure low cost/affordable coaching for underpriveldged kids. Michael Watson is now their honourary president, and comes to town to help raise funds/awareness for the project to keep it going. Have yet to meet him, but all the time he spends with the kids, and what he has achieved against the odds- now thats real internal power. What a diamond

Its amazing how many real immortals of boxing retain their roots, and are genuinely pleased to spend time with fans.

Its one of the reasons why MMA will never surpass it in my eyes.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#407339 - 10/07/08 04:11 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Cord]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Michael Watson is another legend - and I totally agree a man of internal substance!

Herol is a gentleman and a born entertainer. A few years back I had the pleasure of being on a week long course with him out in Cyprus and got to spar and workout with him ton's. Also was having breakfast, dinner and a few beers with him in the evenings, the guy is just awesome. I didn't get to train with him this weekend as it was a charity event and I was there in a professional capacity sorting out bad backs, necks, shoulders and even a broken toe!

I did catch part of Herol's session though and he is still in absolutely tip top condition. And the end of it he was doing more of an exhibition bringing everyone on the course out to spar a round with him and that was breathtaking to watch. It was only body sparring but he was letting them try to use him as a punch bag and go full out on him. He was doing that for at least an hour non-stop with some big blokes whacking him. Quite often with his hands round his back or behind his head. All the way through doing a comedy routine whilst being beaten. The way he was deflecting and absorbing shots was brilliant. At one point he was talking into a camera and still taking shots from a guy he wasn't even looking at saying stuff like, "Oh, doesn't he hit hard! He does, he really does! Oh, he's such a brut!". He also tripped over whilst dancing round and got up saying, "I tripped, I tripped..." whilst laughing his head off and getting heckled from someone in the crowd who said, "Just like you did with Jackson!". A great high energy session

But when I was messing round with him during our little debate he is a great example of someone who has 'internal' connectivity. To start off with we were disagreeing about actual body mechanics, but quickly realised we were talking about the same thing. We had a bit of pummelling session from the clinch at he has that natural ability to send the force to his feet through correct body structure, exactly the same way "we" do in Taiji - he was just a lot better at it than me! In the end the crux of our discussion was more on stance rather than structure. I argued, and still do, that he's stance is far too long and the weight distribution are only applicable within a boxing environment and doesn't translate well to more holistic fighting where you need a stance and footwork that offensively and defensively deals with anything that might be thrown at you. However those were stylistic arguments rather actual biomechanics, of which we were pretty much singing from the same hymn sheet.

He understood how to 'connect' his body which to me is qualifying factor in making what some would call an 'internal' Martial Artist. Being an internal martial artist has nothing to do with being soft or loose, which I just see as floppy and unconnected. They are about having the ability to deliver power to any part of the body in an instant and being strong and smooth through 100% of ALL their movements without being excessively tense. Most of the whipping 'power' shunting techniques like your average Fa Jing, Double Hip, Wave Forms and one inch punch demo's are not internally connected at all and only have strength at the moment of impact. Watch a Tyson K.O punch and you'll see an example of an internally connected body.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

Top
#407340 - 10/07/08 06:05 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Being an internal martial artist has nothing to do with being soft or loose, which I just see as floppy and unconnected. They are about having the ability to deliver power to any part of the body in an instant and being strong and smooth through 100% of ALL their movements without being excessively tense.


Give da man a cigar!

Top
#407341 - 10/07/08 06:45 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Gavin]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

But when I was messing round with him during our little debate he is a great example of someone who has 'internal' connectivity. To start off with we were disagreeing about actual body mechanics, but quickly realised we were talking about the same thing. We had a bit of pummelling session from the clinch at he has that natural ability to send the force to his feet through correct body structure, exactly the same way "we" do in Taiji - he was just a lot better at it than me! In the end the crux of our discussion was more on stance rather than structure. I argued, and still do, that he's stance is far too long and the weight distribution are only applicable within a boxing environment and doesn't translate well to more holistic fighting where you need a stance and footwork that offensively and defensively deals with anything that might be thrown at you. However those were stylistic arguments rather actual biomechanics, of which we were pretty much singing from the same hymn sheet.

He understood how to 'connect' his body which to me is qualifying factor in making what some would call an 'internal' Martial Artist. Being an internal martial artist has nothing to do with being soft or loose, which I just see as floppy and unconnected. They are about having the ability to deliver power to any part of the body in an instant and being strong and smooth through 100% of ALL their movements without being excessively tense. Most of the whipping 'power' shunting techniques like your average Fa Jing, Double Hip, Wave Forms and one inch punch demo's are not internally connected at all and only have strength at the moment of impact. Watch a Tyson K.O punch and you'll see an example of an internally connected body.




Exactly what I have been trying to convey. Thanks Gav.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#407342 - 10/07/08 07:53 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Ditto! Good post, Gav.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#407343 - 10/07/08 08:14 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK


Cool, now we've got some common ground from work from can and have a general consensus as to what constitutes being 'internal' anyone fancy talking about how we train to build a 'connected' body? I was having a discussion with my Dad the other week who also has recently come over to the dark side and started to study Taiji with Steve and I was saying that I by no means believe that Taiji is the only way to build a good internal structure, as I've seen and trained with Martial Artists (and non-martial artists) who have it....BUT for me a lot of people get it as a by product of good training rather as the primary focus for it. Because of this the fruition of this quality is not consistent amongst its practitioners. Bossmans Taiji syllabus focuses on building this structure from day one in what I feel is a very systematic consistent way. In the Yang Taiji thread I pasted the overview of the training schedule we use to produce these skills...please feel free to pick it apart and ask questions about it....
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

Top
#407344 - 10/07/08 10:46 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Gavin]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I would break things down into 3 stages.

1. raw component training
2. skill specific training
3. application of training

Stage 1. Guess what I am going to say? no, I am not going to talk about arm curls . I truly believe that for the principles that constitute what we have reached an understanding of as the power inherent in taiji, that weightlifting, along with functional resistance training will be of huge benefit.
Lifts like the clean, the snatch and the squat-press rely on a strong and ever adapting core, and the power must come from the legs and hips- if it doesnt, you simply cannot perform the lifts. Also, the force has to be 'explosive', again, if you 'force' or 'push' the movement, you will fail.
On top of this training, some of the exercise methodology found in pilates could be immensely useful. Nothing betrays postural flaws or lack of balance in movement like swiss ball or wobble board work. When the ground is unstable, the core is forced to compensate.

There is much more, but I would be happy if only these 'western' methods were considered for now.

2. All raw materials must be moulded, formed and shaped to your needs. This simply means that all the attributes in the world count for little without technique. We (me and Gav), have talked about his resisting taiji drills with Bossman et al, and they sound fantastic. I would argue that they would be very beneficial to those not interested in MA at all, merely looking for new ways to engage and improve the core for application elsewhere, but if you are a practitioner of any art, it is imperitive that this be the focus of your training week in week out, its the only way to ingrain the NMC needed to make the techniques 'natural' to you. Repeat, absorb, utilise.

Which brings us to

3. Application. Now, this, in the arts, is where personal opinion will vary, and also where we all end up saying 'your just a MMA meathead' or 'your just a yogi tree hugger in a Gi'.
To hopefully avoid this nonsense, I will state, simply, my opinion that we call them 'martial arts' for a reason, and there is nothing wrong with emphasising the art over the martial, nor vice versa.
As much skill and dedication goes into both good interior decoration and a good portrait.

I have to say that for me, and my personal satisfaction, i have to take things that I feel I know or have learned, and try them out in a free unpredictable environment, and see how the 'ideal' translates and feels outside of the parameters in which I learned it.

For others, point 3 will merely be an extension of point 2, taking the art for arts sake as far as they can for their own satisfaction.

Whatever floats your boat.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#407345 - 10/07/08 04:04 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Cord]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
good discussion - you guys turned it around well.

using Cord's stages, which I think are a good breakdown/summary, I suspect whats going on in some cases is the training in one aspect, getting attributed for another reason.

for example, someone could train weights and conventional exercise as you describe, and lets say they are also training in Tai'chi. After several months, their partner comments how much more power is generated with seemingly less effort. how much is attributed to IMA technique improvement and how much attributed to the weight trained raw strengthening? it's more interesting to believe it's mostly the technique, but I wonder to what extent.

of course it doesn't matter - improvement is improvement, and it's an individual call as to what the right recipe is of which training methods compliment a desired body dynamic.

but then you have other physical traits separate from the technique. A big huge guy with a pot belly using his weight to advantage when doing push hands exercises, seemingly has a strong grasp of 'rooting' principles...but how much of that rooting is technique and how much is gravity? Not to mention, in the long run, is it healthy to be overweight?


..which leads to the 'bigger' question - how much does athleticism get you vs. how much does technique? I realize they are complimentary, but it is a reasonable question to ask....but if it isn't a decent question, then ignore it and continue along the lines of the good conversation you've started - with my appologies in advance for derailing it again. (not being sarcastic).

Top
#407346 - 10/08/08 11:17 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Ed_Morris]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

..which leads to the 'bigger' question - how much does athleticism get you vs. how much does technique? I realize they are complimentary, but it is a reasonable question to ask....but if it isn't a decent question, then ignore it and continue along the lines of the good conversation you've started - with my appologies in advance for derailing it again. (not being sarcastic).




Its a great question- in fact, it is at the very heart of all modern Martial Arts. Ever notice that, in hypothetical conversation amongst MAists, the attacker is always 'big, strong and clumsy'. Modern MA is a safety blanket to protect many practitioners from the fear of superior natural attributes. Those who cling to this mindset, even go so far as to convince themselves that the naturally strong and athletic are somehow at a disadvantage, or that they are 'slow' or 'muscle bound' or whatever

The extension of this is that, to acknowledge the benefit of raw strength, or consider adding it to your arsenal as an MAist, is somehow disloyal, or joining the opposition.

That is why MA's are synomanous with vast quantities of push ups and sit ups, and a general fixation with bodyweight conditioning- that and watching too many Kung fu movie training montages.

You cannot put faith in the resistance of your own body, and at the same time discredit the value of other forms of resistance- all the body knows is articulation of a given object under the influence of gravity- Barbell, kettlebell, your own body, it does not differentiate, it merely exerts itself to deal with the task at hand. Gymnasts use weights to help them get the strength to control their body in their activity. They build it, then apply it to their skill. Every athletic persuit from Motor Racing, through downhill skiing, to marathon running, swimming and on and on. All have recognised the benefit of 'external' resistance to improve their 'internal' performance.

Avoiding progression in conditioning tactics is why MA performance is being held back at 'hobbyist' level in the vast majority of cases, whilst performance at high amateur level in every persuit not held back by such dogma continues to progress at a frightening rate.

To sumarise, I will leave this post with a truism told me by my Father in Law. 6'7, 21 stone. Ex east end dock rigger, ex city of London cop, 37 years successfully bouncing his own pubs, and a decent Kyokushin fighter in the late 60's:

" A good big 'un will be beat a good little 'un "

If you want to argue the point, go see him, but dont look for me to help, I have seen him prove it
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
Page 21 of 24 < 1 2 ... 19 20 21 22 23 24 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga