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#407327 - 10/05/08 08:13 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Ed_Morris]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

crane styles aren't considered IMA? The classification doesn't matter to me, but thats a first to hear that.




Get used to hearing it.

My theory is that crane is derived partly from xingyi (or at least influenced by it). But crane forms don't operate at all like the internal arts, even in their "softer" versions.

The Hakka systems of bak mei and southern mantis (distant cousins of crane) do have a higher percentage of internal arts techniques, but even they are only partly "internal" arts imo (they have varying degrees of shaolin).

Cord, we've reached a point where we have to agree to disagree. Physics is the same, but how you implement it is different. Otherwise you wouldn't have articles of "the physics of the golf swing" etc. There would just be books on "physics".

In other words I'm talking "applied physics". You might think that "all people fight the same". That's your experience. It isn't mine. Granted, there are not many people who actually apply the internal arts. Granted the diifferences are subtle. But they are there imo.

The "a kick is just a kick" is a good example of my point. We had a good BJJ/vale tudo player come to one of our open days. He wasn't used to our front kicks. A couple of light snaps and he had to "lie down for a little rest". He hadn't seen the front kick done that way before. The physics of the snap kick (be it front or roundhouse) are very, very different from what most people do in the ring today. I hardly ever see anyone using it, hence I'm not surprised by your perspective. But it isn't mine.

Yes, similarities are good to analyse. But I find it more profitable to see how other people do things and learn something new.
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#407328 - 10/05/08 08:39 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
And if you think "a punch is just a punch" consider this:

Karate punches are (at least how I do it) much more "internal" than boxers, so for the sake of convenience I shall use them as a reference point. When a karateka hits a makiwara you hear a resounding crack (like the aforementioned bullwhip). Now take a boxer who can hit like a truck. Let him hit the makiwara and I'll guarantee that he'll hit it without the aforesaid "crack"; it will be "spongy". Conversely, let the karateka hit the heavy bag and he'll hit it like a wuss.

What's going on? Different application of physics. With the makiwara punch there is a different depth penetration, reduced decelaration, no follow through. All variables in the same physics formula.

Take a look at the 2 presenters of "human weapon" trying to punch makiwara. Yuk. Look at the average karateka punching a heavy bag... Yuk.

The internal arts are different yet again.
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#407329 - 10/05/08 11:58 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
it's not necessary to the conversation of course, since words speak louder than action on a forum - but wondering if you could post a link to view what it looks like when you hit a bag using the various methods you write about.

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#407330 - 10/06/08 12:23 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Ed_Morris]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
You mean "hit a makiwara/phone book or a shield"; that would be more something that I do because of my technical preference.

Yes - I can do that; or get someone who isn't as arthritic I am to show you how it should be done I already have shots of some of our guys kicking shields with our shock kicks vs. pushing type kicks:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=X4qeNOE_LtY

I don't think the shock kicks looks impressive. How it feels is another matter. I'd rather take Jed's (the guy kicking) "pushing" type kick (as developed on the heavy bag) than I would his shock kick. The latter hurts more. Having said that, I know people who specialise in the heavy bag type blows who would hurt me badly, so I'm not saying either is more effective. The internal arts eschew the boxing type blows because of a technical preference. Whether you like it or not, they have more "push" than the corresponding internal arts moves - even if you aim for "bullwhip" action etc. They are loaded differently, they are aimed at a different penetration depth, they have more "follow through" etc.
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#407331 - 10/06/08 12:34 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Come to think of it Ed - why don't you demonstrate a makiwara punch. I've seen your technique and you have good kime; this aspect of your karate is not dissimilar to the internal arts of China (yet very different from boxing)...

Of course there are other technical matters that distinguish ima from karate, I chose the punch because it would provide some common reference point in relation to the argument that "physics is just physics".

If you want to see me doing a beng quan or some other internal arts strike, I can arrange something. But it won't look all that impressive (ie. it won't knock anyone across the room).
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#407332 - 10/06/08 01:09 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
In respect of punches, what principally distinguishes an applied internal punch and a karate punch is not its kime or focus, nor depth of penetration etc. What distinguishes it is that internal arts movemements are much more relaxed (something karateka should strive for anyway). What this means is that it permits impulse generation without interruption of flow.

In this regard I do have a video (of me in 2003) punching with an ima action:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=yVkkC_TalUo

This permits internal methods such as "direct to indirect fist":

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=0D93V9Orl2I
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#407333 - 10/06/08 08:38 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
This one is still going on.....jeez. Just skimmed through the recent posts and we now seem to be on the wave length that the argument is over the internal/external and a general consensus that it is the training methods for acquiring supposedly 'internal' skills. It dawned on me that the only place I actually even use these terms is on this bloody forum, so I'm arguing about words that I don't even use. In fact all people are arguing about in the IMA section is 'words' and in the 20 billion or so pages that this thread has spewed over only a handful of them are actually on training methods with the rest concentrating on semantics, which is pointless. Xingi, Bagua and Taiji all come under the family of Kung Fu and they do have specific methods for training the body so why don't we discuss those in the Kung Fu section rather than bitching about terminology?

In this vein I've started this thread in which I've copied and pasted an outline of our training schedule within our system of Taiji which Bossman posted over at the Shikon forum. All of the mod's are making a huge effort to get our forum off its knees. So with this in mind, if anyone is actually interested in discussing training methods rather than arguing about internal/external pop over to that thread. I might even be able to persuade Bossman to participate if there is some serious discussion. Could be an opportunity to give some perspective on the 'core' or 'internal' (our terminology) system which forms the foundation that Cord has been eluding to and how we see it within our art.

Here's the thread:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post16015578
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www.SHIKON.COM
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#407334 - 10/06/08 09:11 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Cord]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
so anyway, Cord...how's it going? ever notice how the 'real' answers are always somewhere else?

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#407335 - 10/06/08 11:22 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Ed_Morris]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Ed, I know you and Gav have 'history', but I am making like Switzerland on this one, as I like and respect you both

I can empathise with your (Ed's) frustrations with some of the threads and the atmosphere around here of late, also your desire to debunk nonsense in the MA's to the Nth degree. You even started your own forum to have an environment you felt best suited your outlook.
Gav and his peers have merely followed a path you have set, and largely for the same reasons.
Much like this thread, where some see differences, I see similarities.
Peace to all, I cannot clarify to any greater effect my standpoint on the dichotomy between external and internal semantics, so am happy for my previous posts to speak to any who choose to read them.
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#407336 - 10/07/08 12:39 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Cord]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
See no argument means we have to talk about training and that's not on the agenda so let's go for veiled sarcasm to goad an ego fuelled argument....

[name dropping mode]
Hey Cord baby, guess who I was 'debating' body mechanics with on Sunday for 45 minutes? Herol 'Bomber' Graham! How cool is that? God is he still 'da bomb' and strong as fooking Ox!!!!
[/name dropping mode]
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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