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#407257 - 09/24/08 04:51 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Lucid Warrior]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Twas that directed at me????
_________________________
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www.SHIKON.COM
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#407258 - 09/24/08 08:48 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

BUT viewing it in terms of myofascial continuity then looking at it very superficially then it's fairly easy to link the deltoid as being next in functional line to the trapezius which can be traced 'functionally' to virtually any other muscle from the 'waist' area. The Psoas originates all the way up to the transverse processes of T12 and is one of the most misused and abused muscles in the body and really it's quite logical to say that functionally the leg actually ends at T12. A better understanding of the holistic myofascial system would allow many of the guys on here to actually understand and discuss 'internal' training methods properly, and this is directed at people on both sides of the fence - but that would ruin the game of bitching wouldn't it?


I was wondering when someone would play the myofascial card... Bottomline, we're dealing with the human body and how the body works. Call it "core strength" or what you like, it's only a small aspect of the totality of the subject. I think at least a few people understand that much. If you really want to get a grasp on this stuff, talk to any bodywork therapist (e.g. Rolfing/Alexander/Feldenkrais/etc.). At least they can talk sensibly about some aspect of the subject than most people here.

But it would aid the discussion if people stopped making innane and obviously personally insulting commentary like calling people "nutjobs", or "frauds". Why is this sort of despicable and low-class behaviour allowed to continue on a supposedly heavily moderated forum? It's a real thin line from character assassination to defamation. And one of these days, these people are going to find themselves in very litigious hot water for libel.

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#407259 - 09/25/08 02:23 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

talk to any bodywork therapist (e.g. Rolfing/Alexander/Feldenkrais/etc.)




.....or some Shiatsu people!!!

Obviously mate, I hope you took my reference to 'nutjob' in the spirit with which it was meant. I've posted links to myofascial stuff before and it's been ignored, like I said it ruins the game., because people can't argue about it because it is not something they can easily dismiss. They also can't discuss it because it would mean studying something which requires a little extra effort that may cause them to re-evaluate certain belief systems (but ironically we're the ones with a vested interest in maintaining a belief system???). We've discussed things privately before in both veins of thought and had great discussions.

I've practically given up talking in or even attempting to explain the quotes from the classics to people outside of the Taiji world now because it comes from a perception that most people aren't familiar or comfortable with (like scientific based theories that our religious brethren don't want us to discuss.... ). Stuff like 'Hold the head as if suspended from heaven' sounds nonsensical but is actually pure Alexander Technique....but hey most on here don't want to discuss and debate, they just want to argue.
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#407260 - 09/25/08 05:00 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
You also need to realize where Alexander, Rolf and Feldenkrais each got their respective inspiration and ideas from - from which they each developed their own unique perspectives and approaches to the subject. But, despite the differences in approach, I generally see them as approaching and overlapping the same areas with respect to "structure" and how the human anatomy works within that musculo/tendon/skeletal structure.

Again, it is only one aspect of the totality of the subject. Myofascial and connective tissue structures, joint/tendon strength, spinal alignment, etc. is only one aspect. How to use the human structure, and in relation to body weight (your and theirs), the GRF, and breath is another aspect. How to use twisting, winding, spiralling, bowing/unbowing, hinged movement, etc. to store and release power is also another aspect. How to use "mind-directed" resultant vector forces within a certain structural "shape", to resolve push/pull forces on the human body is also another aspect. The one that is supposedly under discussion here.

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#407261 - 09/25/08 05:38 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Agreed...and when you look at the immense subject matter contained within the syllabus and then add the critical even more complex psychological controlling the physiological element to the training people should *hopefully* begin to understand the need for the use of analogy and metaphor in the teaching. Very few people have an interest or even an aptitude for anatomy and physiology which is why when we start speaking in more complex terms people switch off. What has gone wrong is that too many people have taken metaphor and analogy literally, rather than a simple yet powerful tool of transmission of wisdom. Imagery and symbolism are powerful learning aids used in every culture of the world in every field of study.

So really discussing 'internal' physics is a bit of a silly thing to do because none of us (at least to my knowledge) are physicists we're Martial Artists - again I think once people accept that fact and I'm directing this at the weirdo's who think that a mircowave is surplus to requirements when you have 'Chee' we'd all be able to get along much better....
_________________________
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#407262 - 09/25/08 02:37 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Cord]
Aesir Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 397
Loc: Croydon, UK
Quote:

Quote:

Did this involve a funnel and someone pinching his nose closed?




Nope. Donington rock festival 1994. Through circumstances too complicated to go into, our tent was burnt, and we spent the final night locked in the mini-bus, with a minimum of 2 people awake and 'on sentry' to make sure the scum camped 3 tents down didnt break in using an fire axe.
Like I said, it was a complicated situation.

Anyway, me and my mate Cliff were on 'sentry' (we had a lot of speed and weed, and neither of us intended to sleep anyway), and steadily, everyone else faded into slumber. one of the sleeping beauties ('CJ') dropped off with his arm extended over the back of a bus seat, his face pressed into the window. As his grip on the can relaxed in his sleep, he reflexively gripped it tight and brought it to his lips for a gulp (eyes still shut, still asleep). Me and Cliff rolled a couple of fat ones and got comfy to obeserve this phenomenon repeated to the end of the can, when he promptly, on autopilot, cracked a fresh one and began the process again!!!!
The second can fell to the floor with dregs in it, and we reverted to listening to motorhead on the bus tape player, and weighing up the pros and cons of firing the engine up and running those f*ckers over in their tent. Thankfully, neither of us could focus well enough to attempt the mission.




This made me laugh its weird to think that was happening while I was 4/5 years old.

I was watching a martial arts program "Mind, Body and kickass moves" on bbc3 and this old dude was leaning on a long sword on his neck. Sword was upright with the handle on the floor, tip in the air pointing to the sky. The guy was standing like a cross + and slowly leant forward onto the sword so his neck was in contact with the tip and instead of poking through his neck the sword bent instead. It was quite impressive I don't think many bodies could do that. But then I don't really see it as useful either.

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#407263 - 09/25/08 07:09 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Agreed...and when you look at the immense subject matter contained within the syllabus and then add the critical even more complex psychological controlling the physiological element to the training people should *hopefully* begin to understand the need for the use of analogy and metaphor in the teaching. Very few people have an interest or even an aptitude for anatomy and physiology which is why when we start speaking in more complex terms people switch off. What has gone wrong is that too many people have taken metaphor and analogy literally, rather than a simple yet powerful tool of transmission of wisdom. Imagery and symbolism are powerful learning aids used in every culture of the world in every field of study.

So really discussing 'internal' physics is a bit of a silly thing to do because none of us (at least to my knowledge) are physicists we're Martial Artists - again I think once people accept that fact and I'm directing this at the weirdo's who think that a mircowave is surplus to requirements when you have 'Chee' we'd all be able to get along much better....


I appreciate the complexities, but there's no reason why it can't be discussed logically, even if we're using basic physics (OK, science) terms as metaphors for further understanding. And anyone who's not interested can always tune out. That seems like a fair and polite thing to do in social circumstances? If you don't fancy being part of the conversation, you can leave? Why would it be necessary to interject with off-topic comments, or personal snipes? Is that what people do IRL? Or does the anonymity of an internet forum allow them to suspend all common decency, and roleplay trollish behaviour?

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#407264 - 09/26/08 05:02 AM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Gavin]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Sorry it has taken me so long to respond- real life beckoned and i answered the call.

Eyrie wrote:
Quote:

Much better. Thank you. Personally, I'd like to see more posts like this from you and other people as well... as you said in another thread... get rid of the guff and work towards an understanding of what "internal" really means...




With respect Eyrie, if this kind of post from me is something you see as unusual, then you have spent very little time on the strengthening forum where this stuff is my bread and butter. The fact that you dont visit their much is indicative of my problem with the concept that your arts are 'internal'- it means that many who do them, feel that because their body works differently, then other forms of conditioning somehow could not apply or be beneficial to them. It is an insular outlook that has prevented the community from benefitting from some usefull tools. Ashe incorporates what you would describe as 'western' conditioning into his art, because he understands that the body moves how the body moves, and improving base attributes can open doors to greater performance of skillsets in any and all arts.

Gavin wrote:
Quote:

Could I just address one point about arms being connected to the waist....I have no idea what context this was mentioned in but if you are looking at this from a purely individual muscle based point of view obviously its nonsense. BUT viewing it in terms of myofascial continuity then looking at it very superficially then it's fairly easy to link the deltoid as being next in functional line to the trapezius which can be traced 'functionally' to virtually any other muscle from the 'waist' area.
The Psoas originates all the way up to the transverse processes of T12 and is one of the most misused and abused muscles in the body and really it's quite logical to say that functionally the leg actually ends at T12. A better understanding of the holistic myofascial system would allow many of the guys on here to actually understand and discuss 'internal' training methods properly, and this is directed at people on both sides of the fence - but that would ruin the game of bitching wouldn't it?




Its really not about b1tching for me Gav, I dont blame you for skipping some pretty arduous interplay between me and Eyrie over several threads on this, but the origin of the arms/waist conversation was through lucid Warrior stating that the muscles of the arm attached (implied directly) in the waist. Myofascial domino's or not, that statement, of itself, is just wrong.
I do take your point about interplay in biomechanics- you know that if someone posts a 'how can i hit harder' question in the strength forum, my response is always to explain the role of legs, hips and core as prime generators of punch power. Posterior chain strength is the most vital and overlooked aspect of conditioning in amateur performance today. Most people still think that the quads are the most important muscle in leg power, not understanding the interplay between hams, glutes, and back far exceed the quads in functional carrying of the body. Like Carl Weathers said in 'Happy Gilmore' Its all in the hips, its all in the hips.

It just annoys me that by putting this 'bubble' of 'internal' around a small group of physical activities, many who persue them feel that certain biomechanical truths, and the systems of improving them, do not apply. It can come across as arrogance, or ignorance to someone like me, and i dare say what I have to say is interperated similarly by them.
Internal and external do not exist other than as words- the bodies bound to the terms move the same way, so it is the terms themselves that are the problem, not the arts in question.
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#407265 - 09/26/08 07:33 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: Cord]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

With respect Eyrie, if this kind of post from me is something you see as unusual, then you have spent very little time on the strengthening forum where this stuff is my bread and butter. The fact that you dont visit their much is indicative of my problem with the concept that your arts are 'internal'- it means that many who do them, feel that because their body works differently, then other forms of conditioning somehow could not apply or be beneficial to them. It is an insular outlook that has prevented the community from benefitting from some usefull tools. Ashe incorporates what you would describe as 'western' conditioning into his art, because he understands that the body moves how the body moves, and improving base attributes can open doors to greater performance of skillsets in any and all arts.


Gee... thanks for the slight. I thought I was in agreement with you?

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#407266 - 09/26/08 08:06 PM Re: A reasonable discussion of "internal" physics [Re: eyrie]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

With respect Eyrie, if this kind of post from me is something you see as unusual, then you have spent very little time on the strengthening forum where this stuff is my bread and butter.




personal.

Quote:

The fact that you dont visit their much is indicative of my problem with the concept that your arts are 'internal'




transitional.

Quote:

- it means that many who do them, feel that because their body works differently, then other forms of conditioning somehow could not apply or be beneficial to them. It is an insular outlook that has prevented the community from benefitting from some usefull tools. Ashe incorporates what you would describe as 'western' conditioning into his art, because he understands that the body moves how the body moves, and improving base attributes can open doors to greater performance of skillsets in any and all arts.




General.

Quote:

Gee... thanks for the slight. I thought I was in agreement with you?




No slight was made, or inferred. It was a simple observation that you found my technical post regarding conditioning to be 'against the grain' in regards to your experience of my input on the site, when i have made thousands of such posts in the strength forum- somehwere where you are not a regular contributer, supporting my observation.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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