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#406252 - 09/02/08 11:01 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA

I think I said above, I occasionally do line work and realise how important it is. People who don't do this kind of training don't realise just what they're missing in terms of building, refining and conditioning basic skill.

When Matsui sensei (Kyokushinkai champion) was asked how he developed such devastating front kicks he replied "endless repetitions (i.e. in line work)...

I agree with all that, I just can't help but feel there are more constructive ways to peform 'endless repetitions', I do a bit of line work in the beginning, but i'm honestly not a huge fan.

#406253 - 09/02/08 12:30 PM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I spend more time with basic movement rather then Sanchin stance initially, Sanchin stance is a lesson within its self. What I try to do with this stance in compare it with the natural stance of a puncher. Just like concrete after years of curing it becomes stronger and the principle of rooting is explorered.

My main concern with basic training is how it builds upon each other and smooth transition in technique. Basics, Kata and 2 man Bunkia helps explain each movement.

Chudan blocking is explored in slight angling of the body getting off line and snapping down on the arms with the backknuckles shows another method of useage. With this concentration of off line and snap down deflection you don't get stuck with a punuch in the center of your gut.

Relax punching pushing from ground to the fist is drilled and tightening at the end, learning to use most of the body within the punch or kick is what I want. So that it flows.

#406254 - 09/04/08 02:35 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: BrianS]
Zach_Zinn Offline

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA

Here is what I wrote about line work long ago. I feel pretty much the same way,but there are different ways that are just as good.

the instructor needs to watch the students do things repetetively so he can correct them. I think this is one reason why line drills were made. No, it's not cool,but by changing basic things are we getting farther away from karate? Or is karate about ever changing?

Interesting stuff so far guys, Neko it sounds like you do some good mechanics training, that kind of thing is invaluable imo.

....anyway to address the above by BrianS, and to keep the conversation going:

I have a theory that maybe line drills and similar aren't as 'traditional' as people think they are, and are more an advent of the modern happening of a large group of people needing to be drilled they did say in pre WWII Japan

Not a dig on Japanese Karate BTW, but I do think it's important to mention that alot of things taken for granted as "traditional" in Karate may not have actually have been so at one time.

That is not to say I don't think this kind of work has any benefit, I do, I simply think it's usefulness is limited past the early stages of training in terms of class time well used.

Then again, i've been teaching a short amount of time, and I can easily see my opinions changing.

Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/04/08 02:39 AM)

#406255 - 09/04/08 02:46 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Line drills are almost certainly a modern innovation coinciding with attempts to popularise karate and its introduction to the Japanese mainland.

Line drills are nonetheless useful - if a tad boring. But then again, the mental discipline / spirit you acquire in overcoming that boredom and any fatigue (eg. doing 2000 mae and mawashi geri in one class - which I've done many times in my career) is invaluable.

I remember thanking my instructor after my first 2000 kick class in 1982...

#406256 - 09/04/08 10:15 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree line drills are modern methods of training large groups it reminds me more of the bayonet training course taught in WWI & II and on.

In Okinawa I was told that the method of training was more informal and private more like a personal/family system rather then the Japanese dojo method.

Karate was usually performed in smaller spaces rather then a court yard or large basketball like gym. With the training going from small Dojo/Sensei's home to school auditorium or court yard the line training method seen near Shuri's walls became popular.

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