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#406242 - 09/02/08 02:00 AM How do you train fundamentals?
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
So there it is, call it kihon, basics, whatever...how do you train things like chudan-uke (middle block), chudan-tsuki (middle level punch), mae geri (front kick) etc...

Do you vary your methods based on the person or do you have a set way of teaching them? Do you start people with solo practice only or do you integrate partner work right away?

I'm not really asking about what mechanics you think are correct or anything, that could be for another thread, but rather what you general method is in teaching these things to newer students.

I'll go first, the first thing I usually do is sanchin walking, first the basic form, then with some pressure applied to make sure they understand what it feels like to move from the tanden and not just trying to step like they do normally, only in Sanchin stance, which seems to be what most folks do at first.

I usually move pretty quickly into partner work with most folks, depending on the people you can start with one doing moving chudan-tsuki, the other doing chudan-uke moving back and forth with varying speed, intensity, rythm etc.

My own experience has been that someone's understanding of these fundamental techniques is going to determine how they deal with training applications, any kind of sparring done etc.

In the time i've been teaching I worry sometimes that maybe I haven't spent enough time on these skills with some students, as I tend to move pretty quickly to application and such.

I personally don't like the whole "stand in a line and do this" method of training this stuff, so I am always looking for new ways to show it's relevancy without boring anyone to death.


P.S. I hope my translations were ok, wasn't trying to be obnoxious, but I know some people don't use Japanese terms.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/02/08 02:13 AM)

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#406243 - 09/02/08 03:42 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
pretty much all our Kihon is done in the form of kata, I do break it down into singles and combis according to the students need for rep's.

Bunkai is learned from day one so application in 2 man sets is worked straight away with the kata, this always allows for variations and ideas to happen as we work the kata technique as well.

im not a great technican, prefering to focus on application as needed and long term skill building.

also the physical conditioning of each tool is important in the early years so we have many excersises and drills for this to support the kihon.
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#406244 - 09/02/08 03:54 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: shoshinkan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Heck - I go back to the line stuff from time to time and realise how necessary it is. But after almost 30 years I'm bored stiff with it, so I tend to avoid such practise even though I shouldn't.

Yes, I'm always trying to come up with different ways of practising basics. A type of drill I thought of a while back is the "happo" where you practise the same kihon application with a total of 8 turns. You can take portions or adaptations of kata and work them into endless combinations. It's fun to get them flowing fast.

Here are a few that might give you some inspiration for your own ideas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY8E1XwWFrI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q867I6j4tA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn21Mi1dM1o

Also I like to vary my blocking practise in simple 2 person sets which double as ude tanren. Take a look at my article below which has some videos embedded in it:

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/08/variations-in-ude-tanren-forearm.html
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#406245 - 09/02/08 04:33 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
hi Dan,

thanks or the links I liked some of the 2 man stuff, appriciate that.

re solo work I think the kata is enough for us, the rest should be working with partners through fixed, semi fixed and free drills and then into spontaneous attacks etc etc, just our emphasis of course.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#406246 - 09/02/08 04:51 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: shoshinkan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

re solo work I think the kata is enough for us




I can't argue with that!
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#406247 - 09/02/08 04:59 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...32#Post15748321

Here is what I wrote about line work long ago. I feel pretty much the same way,but there are different ways that are just as good.

the instructor needs to watch the students do things repetetively so he can correct them. I think this is one reason why line drills were made. No, it's not cool,but by changing basic things are we getting farther away from karate? Or is karate about ever changing?
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#406248 - 09/02/08 06:16 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: BrianS]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK
I'm not a karate man but when teaching basic skills we start with the basic coordination - getting arms, legs, waist in right postition to start with. Then get that position right relative to an unmoving opponent so they have the right distance etc. Then a moving opponent to start getting timing right. The opponent changes speed, direction etc so the student needs to change the angles and timing while maintaining the general coordination. Then when they can coordinate the movement timed to an opponents move we add power, then speed. Mixing all this in with form work to make movement transitions smooth and partner work that goes from fixed positions to gradually decreasing the limits all the way to uncontrolled sparring.

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#406249 - 09/02/08 06:34 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: BrianS]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
interesting blast from the past - I may be mad but at least im consistantly non conformist re these things !
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#406250 - 09/02/08 08:39 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: shoshinkan]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
I think line work is a good thing. I think it also develops a sense of your surroundings. Especially in a small dojo with a big class..:) Almost like kumite..
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#406251 - 09/02/08 10:47 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: JasonM]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I think I said above, I occasionally do line work and realise how important it is. People who don't do this kind of training don't realise just what they're missing in terms of building, refining and conditioning basic skill.

When Matsui sensei (Kyokushinkai champion) was asked how he developed such devastating front kicks he replied "endless repetitions (i.e. in line work)...
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#406252 - 09/02/08 11:01 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

I think I said above, I occasionally do line work and realise how important it is. People who don't do this kind of training don't realise just what they're missing in terms of building, refining and conditioning basic skill.

When Matsui sensei (Kyokushinkai champion) was asked how he developed such devastating front kicks he replied "endless repetitions (i.e. in line work)...




I agree with all that, I just can't help but feel there are more constructive ways to peform 'endless repetitions', I do a bit of line work in the beginning, but i'm honestly not a huge fan.

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#406253 - 09/02/08 12:30 PM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I spend more time with basic movement rather then Sanchin stance initially, Sanchin stance is a lesson within its self. What I try to do with this stance in compare it with the natural stance of a puncher. Just like concrete after years of curing it becomes stronger and the principle of rooting is explorered.

My main concern with basic training is how it builds upon each other and smooth transition in technique. Basics, Kata and 2 man Bunkia helps explain each movement.

Chudan blocking is explored in slight angling of the body getting off line and snapping down on the arms with the backknuckles shows another method of useage. With this concentration of off line and snap down deflection you don't get stuck with a punuch in the center of your gut.

Relax punching pushing from ground to the fist is drilled and tightening at the end, learning to use most of the body within the punch or kick is what I want. So that it flows.
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#406254 - 09/04/08 02:35 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: BrianS]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...32#Post15748321

Here is what I wrote about line work long ago. I feel pretty much the same way,but there are different ways that are just as good.

the instructor needs to watch the students do things repetetively so he can correct them. I think this is one reason why line drills were made. No, it's not cool,but by changing basic things are we getting farther away from karate? Or is karate about ever changing?




Interesting stuff so far guys, Neko it sounds like you do some good mechanics training, that kind of thing is invaluable imo.

....anyway to address the above by BrianS, and to keep the conversation going:

I have a theory that maybe line drills and similar aren't as 'traditional' as people think they are, and are more an advent of the modern happening of a large group of people needing to be drilled together...like they did say in pre WWII Japan

Not a dig on Japanese Karate BTW, but I do think it's important to mention that alot of things taken for granted as "traditional" in Karate may not have actually have been so at one time.

That is not to say I don't think this kind of work has any benefit, I do, I simply think it's usefulness is limited past the early stages of training in terms of class time well used.

Then again, i've been teaching a short amount of time, and I can easily see my opinions changing.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/04/08 02:39 AM)

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#406255 - 09/04/08 02:46 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Line drills are almost certainly a modern innovation coinciding with attempts to popularise karate and its introduction to the Japanese mainland.

Line drills are nonetheless useful - if a tad boring. But then again, the mental discipline / spirit you acquire in overcoming that boredom and any fatigue (eg. doing 2000 mae and mawashi geri in one class - which I've done many times in my career) is invaluable.

I remember thanking my instructor after my first 2000 kick class in 1982...
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http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#406256 - 09/04/08 10:15 AM Re: How do you train fundamentals? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree line drills are modern methods of training large groups it reminds me more of the bayonet training course taught in WWI & II and on.

In Okinawa I was told that the method of training was more informal and private more like a personal/family system rather then the Japanese dojo method.

Karate was usually performed in smaller spaces rather then a court yard or large basketball like gym. With the training going from small Dojo/Sensei's home to school auditorium or court yard the line training method seen near Shuri's walls became popular.
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DBAckerson

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