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#406199 - 09/10/08 10:18 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA

Last I checked, there's a difference between 94 and 80...

Helio Gracie born October 1, 1913. Making him how old......?

BTW - If this is true:


I think people need to understand the difference between a static demo and dynamic application... they're not the same thing, even though the applied concept is the same. Can concepts explicated in a static demo be applied dynamically? Would they look different? Are they based on the same principle or concept? (The answer is "yes" to all BTW).

Then how would you be able to tell this:


I'd say it is at a very fundamental level. One is using his spine, kua and legs to generate power in a very different way to the other, which, although still using his whole body, is generating power in a very different way.

Wouldn't you have to "feel it" to know?
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#406200 - 09/10/08 10:48 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
dandjurdjevic Offline

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia

I know it's hard to find examples of "good internal skills" on the net, but I finally found the video I was looking for:

Your video shows taiji pushing that is good for show (and illustrates some basic concepts of momentum transfer), not combat taiji. Taiji is not designed to "push" opponents. I disagree with you about XiePeiQi as well. He might not be an example of "the best bagua I've seen" by a long shot. But he is b***dy marvellous for his age anyway. And his knowledge is very deep.

Harlan, you asked what makes it "internal"? I disagree with most of the people on this thread on this issue. It is internal because it is bagua... Bagua lines are clean, simple and direct. Yes, it wasn't magical. But that simplicity in movement is beguiling. It shows many years of technique isolation for the purposes of making it look (and feel) "easy".

Eyrie argues that all form is "external". To some extent this is true, because nothing is completely internal or external. However, as you will see from my article below external and internal martial arts have different approaches and goals. The internal arts have (through their approach) the fundamental goal of maximising impulse.

By contrast external arts have (through their approach) the fundamental goal of maximising power.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (09/10/08 11:23 AM)

#406201 - 09/10/08 01:26 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: dandjurdjevic]
matxtx Offline

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
The internal side,to me ,is me knowing my body and mind and how it works and how to apply it in all sorts of situations and positions to get the most power or the best pull or push or drag or whatever.
If I need to do a powerfull right hook and have more weight on my right leg its different mechanics and leverage etc than if i have more weight on my left.And in a fight no one can know what position a person will be in because its random and ever changing.
So I have to get a feel for my own personal body and whats going on.
Basicaly,to me, its Physiology and Biochemistry.
But once a person is in front of me trying to take my head of I have to concentrate on whats outside so its external and hope everything I worked on 'internaly' kicks in.
Though I definitly think knowing how to fight on a basic level must come first then looking deeper can come later.

This blog has alot of great stuff on the 'internal' side and comes from a practical fighting angle (NHB).Some parts also explain Trad Chinese ideas in a modern,practical way.(Eg fa jing ,pu, tim, tun, toh

Edited by matxtx (09/10/08 01:54 PM)
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

#406202 - 09/10/08 07:22 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: matxtx]
dandjurdjevic Offline

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
You could define "internal" arts as you have matxtx. You could, I guess, define internal by reference to "efficient" etc. But then again I could define my own art as MMA (it is a bit of a mix, after all). It wouldn't be accurate in terms of who has already appropriated the name.

The fact is this: the internal martial arts of China are distinct from other martial systems: they have different techniques that rely on different factors for effectiveness. In short, they are different technically.

Have a look at the article I posted a while back "Internal vs. external martial arts".

As I said above, the principal distinction can be summed up as this: external arts (including that of Steve Morris - good value for real fighting) prioritise power. Internal arts prioritise impulse - ie. the transfer of momentum. Again, take a look at the end of my article "Hitting harder: physics made easy". This distinction flows through to the basic techniques - ie. the "form".

#406203 - 09/10/08 08:06 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I must hasten to add that nothing precludes 'external' arts from having an 'internal' aspect. In fact every system is a mix. It is a question of your technical priority.

Put it this way - no strike can function without power. And no stike can be effective without impulse.

#406204 - 09/12/08 08:20 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: CaptCollins]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3119
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello CaptCollins:

First, I will start by saying that anyone even moving around much less breathing at his age is a wonderful thing to see! He appears young and very spry. Wish I spoke his language so I could tell if he was lucid or not...


As to his mechnics, his speed, etc, some of the mechanics he's using seem the right angles, directions and so forth, so sure not being on the "receiveing end" of his technique, I suppose its possible.

But frankly, I'd love to "receive it" to be sure... myself .

Had any of his deflective "shrugs" not included the little trembling action at the end by the receipient I would have been more compelled to believe personally. But its plausible he has power... why not,


#406205 - 09/26/08 09:48 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Ed_Morris]
CaptCollins Offline

Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 4
Well thanks to the people who actually answered the question. Whoever called me a dbz wannabe can [censored] off though lol cause obviously you didnt read that first post very well. That was 5 years ago. I was just wondering what the pulsing feeling in my body was and if it could help me. Jesus, theres some serious [censored] on here. Again thanks for the people who helped.

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