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#406189 - 09/09/08 11:43 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: dandjurdjevic]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Now I'm thoroughly confused...Dan...what makes this demonstration, qualifies it, as 'internal'? Guess I don't have a clue what 'internal' is...because this just looks like a good understanding of body mechanics and motion that can be found in...say...Goju (an 'external' art).

Quote:

..."internal" movement (in the sense of bagua, xingyi or taiji).

If you really want to see an example of an old codger doing internal arts, check out this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1A6YorAh2k



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#406190 - 09/09/08 12:30 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

So, why don't we see more hard hitting with relaxed power in MMA competitions?




Who says we don't?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#406191 - 09/09/08 04:19 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

The fact that individual practices may vary does not make it any less so. On what basis do you make that statement?

What "similar skills to IMA" would these be? How do you differentiate "internal" vs "external"? Or are you simply conveniently lumping them all together and suggesting you practice some mish mash "middle way"?




Lol no, I don't practice a mishmash anything, I train in Goju with a little teeny weeny bit of Judo crosstraining on the side as it were... my differentiation of internal vs. external I suppose is fairly vague and i'd rather leave all the defining up to you. I have seen that 'internal skills' of weight manipulation etc aren't the exclusive property of Neija and Aiki arts...I guess that's what i'm saying...hopefully that makes sense?

All I am saying is that I have felt the same bodyskills in some Karate guys as I have some IMA people, though of course i'm sure it's still down to training methods.

Earlier I mentioned aiki-age as an example (tell me if I am naming it wrong)of 'feeling' internal skills, I have felt the same force from guys doing things standing as well. For the record I assume it's all physics and don't put much stock in toher explanations.

I am suggesting that the trappings and external form don't always look and feel the same, but they might produce the same results.

- Mr. MishMashy

P.S. I like Yang Wing-Mings explanation of the terms internal and external the best, where it is more a question of initial training method and what it progesses to, than a black and white strict definition of arts that are purely one or the other.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/09/08 04:28 PM)

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#406192 - 09/09/08 08:36 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Zach_Zinn: I think the equation of Sanchin with Waija is a little misleading, and is more the result of how most people do Sanchin (as some sort of muscular exertion excercise).


Certainly the initial approach is different, and what it progresses to is *generally* the same goal, but it still doesn't detract from the fact that Sanchin is waijia. So how is that "misleading"? Unless, of course, you have information to the contrary? BTW, it's more than just "weight manipulation"...

Dan, I'll give you WangShuJin, but... he's not 94 in that video, and he's not quite doing the same thing as the old bagua dude. OK maybe at 0:21 where he borrows the uke's force, and adds it back. What the bagua dude is doing is using uke's own force to bounce himself off. That's merely a demonstration of basic peng jin, is it not?

How old is XiePeiQi in that video? Personally, I don't think that's a good video that clearly demonstrates "good internal skills". I don't think Xie's as "connected" as he could be, particularly at 2:05 and 2:16 where he nearly loses it, but I accept the fact that it is a demo, and he's an old man, and Tim isn't giving anything in terms of force.

I know it's hard to find examples of "good internal skills" on the net, but I finally found the video I was looking for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Qex7QFLss

0:09 - peng
0:22 - lu(?)
0:36 - peng
0:51 - cai(?)
1:03 - peng
1:30 - ji(?)

To me, those are extrapolations of using uke's own force against himself, and adding to it - which is what the bagua dude was *demonstrating*, albeit at a more advanced (hmmm... basic?) level.

I think it's easy to see things at one's level of understanding, and anything beyond that would seem extraordinary or even fake. Personally, I'd love to see any MMA dude do anything remotely martial at age 94.

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#406193 - 09/09/08 09:58 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I know it's hard to find examples of "good internal skills" on the net, but I finally found the video I was looking for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Qex7QFLss




Now we're getting somewhere. This video is much more believable to me. I have seen and felt that kind of technique before. His mechanics, while subtle and efficient, are still there, unlike some of the other vids where the guys are not even moving or not touching the opponents. Still not seeing any difference between him and Genki Sudo in efficiency or relaxation, though.

And isn't Helio Gracie still practicing in his 80's?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#406194 - 09/09/08 10:13 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

BTW, it's more than just "weight manipulation"...




Duh....I had hoped that was implied, do you want to try to list off everything that says 'internal' to me?

Let me ask you what you think makes Sanchin be it from Fuzhou or Naha or wherever external?

I'm just curious because it seems to be conventional wisdom that it is, but I don't see anymore argument in favor of that other than the usual thing where people assume that everyone doing Sanchin is training it as some kind of PT (complete with overdone ibuki breathing and puckedred butt) instead of a way to build a martial frame.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/09/08 10:16 PM)

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#406195 - 09/09/08 10:32 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Last I checked, there's a difference between 94 and 80...

I don't know about not touching the opponent... where have I proferred video examples to that effect?

Not moving? See those timeframes above... sure he's moving into position, but at the point of the throw/takedown, he's pretty much standing still...

I think people need to understand the difference between a static demo and dynamic application... they're not the same thing, even though the applied concept is the same. Can concepts explicated in a static demo be applied dynamically? Would they look different? Are they based on the same principle or concept? (The answer is "yes" to all BTW).

If you can't understand the concept demonstrated statically, how can you understand how it works dynamically? See Ashe Higgs's response in the Fake or Real thread.

Now, "efficiency and relaxation" aside, is what Sudo does fundamentally different in principle or concept? I'd say it is at a very fundamental level. One is using his spine, kua and legs to generate power in a very different way to the other, which, although still using his whole body, is generating power in a very different way.

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#406196 - 09/09/08 10:49 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
The difference is in the intent. Sanchin is wai jia liao fa derived from Southern Shaolin traditions. It's primary focus is on developing the muscles, bones and tendons - aka yijing.

That individuals can choose to do Sanchin (or any other form of exercise) using xin, yi, and (oooh.. that BAD word!) qi does not make it an "internal" form. It's a subtle distinction between an "internal" form (is there even such a thing!!??), and doing a form "internally".

You see my point? Professing to do IMA "because I do sanchin" is misleading...

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#406197 - 09/09/08 11:19 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

The difference is in the intent. Sanchin is wai jia liao fa derived from Southern Shaolin traditions. It's primary focus is on developing the muscles, bones and tendons - aka yijing.

That individuals can choose to do Sanchin (or any other form of exercise) using xin, yi, and (oooh.. that BAD word!) qi does not make it an "internal" form. It's a subtle distinction between an "internal" form (is there even such a thing!!??), and doing a form "internally".

You see my point? Professing to do IMA "because I do sanchin" is misleading...




Yeah..I see your point, but....it seems like the difference between doing a form internally and doing an internal form has to be one of semantics.

Maybe that's just because my own exposure to traditionally internal MA is not huge.

Anyway topic for another thread I guess.

I'm also gonna throw out there that in my view and the way i'm taught sanchin is to develop a connected body first, not for tendon strengthening, or stronger bones or any of that.

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#406198 - 09/09/08 11:43 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
No... it's not semantics... doing a form or simply moving, using "internal" mechanics is not the same thing as doing an "internal form". Firstly, there is no such thing as an "internal form". All forms are external. It is the expression of internal body movement that takes form. It's the same difference as someone learning aikido waza and thinking it is aiki. It's not. It's the expression of aiki that results in aikido waza... not the other way round.

What do you mean by "connected body"?

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