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#406179 - 09/08/08 09:12 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia

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#406180 - 09/08/08 09:13 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: MattJ]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Well, here is a video of some taiji masters fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4&feature=rec-fresh
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#406181 - 09/08/08 09:26 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

Care to explain why? Why is complicity in one video "acquiescence" and the other is "deception"?



not sure that I can, but I'll try.

There is a two section answer to each. theres the psychological and theres the physical.


In the Ueshiba video, and what I've heard of his reputation, I believe the students are genuinely acting out of respect and reacting the way that is expected. This culture likely didn't grow overnight. It starts with students being more and more subconsciously compliant as respect grows for the precipitator of the technique. If that behavior is nutured, what happens is a culture of respectful compliance. If that training relationship/culture distorts to the point where the practitioner can no longer apply the technique with the same effect to an outsider as he can to a student within the culture, then you have functional art degredation. If that culture persists in a bubble, the training atmosphere can breed cult-mentality delusion. I believe that is the level of acquiescence I am witnessing in that video. Ueshiba was god status in the eyes of his students by that point in his life, to deny him the effectiveness of his intent is to deny the art. so they react. Their physical reaction is in concert with Ueshiba's intent. The timing and direction of their reaction clues me into that.


the Nishino compliance is willful deception. the attackers are not timed with Nishino's intent. the intent is disemboddied from their reactions and are pre-determined. I don't think either party entirely believes in what they are doing or their interaction. instead, both have separate tasks: wave a hand. fall backwards as far and as violent as possible.
That, plus my previous suspiscion based on the write-ups, fake psudo-scientific studies and material I've seen of Nishino, I believe the motivation is a combination of materialistic and egotistic goals. It is calculated deception. however, whenever someone is in that mode for long, they will likely start to actually believe their own BS. Dillman, Dante and Villari are other examples.

Even though both videos show basically the same thing, their context is different both physically and psychologically.

that's my best guess.


[add] as to the 'ol man' push hands guy video you just referenced - I can't tell which compliance is in play (intentional or respectful), perhaps a bit of both, but I do know what it feels like to get hit hard with relaxed power...and you don't go sailing backwards; you drop on the spot.
I do lean towards deception though, since these are the guys who are marketing their one of many 'Temple resorts' in China that has become a tourist industry.

Even if the old man is generating that power and it's not completely fake, I'm not interested. I'm interested in the power that drops someone, not push away.

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#406182 - 09/08/08 10:12 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Perhaps Nishino's ukes suck more than Ueshiba's stooges? Maybe Ueshiba trained his uke's so that their timing was better? If you didn't know of Ueshiba's reputation, would your assessment be any different I wonder?

So, "internal" (to you) means push away and "real" power means drop them? Interesting perspective... based on a limited demo. Do you honestly believe that one form of power generation has no merit over another because it doesn't have, in your eyes, the "ideal results"?

So, why don't we see more hard hitting with relaxed power in MMA competitions?

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#406183 - 09/09/08 12:32 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

Perhaps Nishino's ukes suck more than Ueshiba's stooges? Maybe Ueshiba trained his uke's so that their timing was better?


not sure why you are so hard on Ueshiba. I don't think it's uncommon for students of an elderly (80+) sensei to give leeway enough to comply to his demonstrations out of respect. It's just when that is cultured within the training method for too long, it could conceivably becomes the standard...and then beyond to transform into cult of personality delusion. as the video demonstrated.


Quote:

If you didn't know of Ueshiba's reputation, would your assessment be any different I wonder?


probably. I try and use everything (agreed, not much) I know to form my opinions and then change those opinions when more is learned. I'm more times wrong than I am right.

Quote:

So, "internal" (to you) means push away and "real" power means drop them? Interesting perspective... based on a limited demo.


no. never said that. I said based on the demo of the 3rd video (Chinese old man demonstrating on students within an advertisement clip), doesn't look like dynamics I'd be interested in. (technique-wise or marketing-wise). I don't mind others staying at his family resort for $4000 bucks + airfare for 2 weeks and learning how to slowly push people though. Have at it.
http://www.lifeqicenter.com/chinaretreat2009.html


Quote:

Do you honestly believe that one form of power generation has no merit over another because it doesn't have, in your eyes, the "ideal results"?


I believe one form is better over another, yes. although I argue points, I don't believe everyone needs to believe what I believe in order for them to be right.


Quote:

So, why don't we see more hard hitting with relaxed power in MMA competitions?


there is less opportunity to see picture perfect displays of body dynamics since both people are really trying to hit each other, non-scripted, and with followed-thru intent - I see more internal/relaxed power inherent in a skilled MMA fighter than I do seeing two people push hands.

The look and feel of "IMA" has become trademarked to the point that the look and feel has become the goal instead of the method. well, believe it or not, what some arts do is not make it the goal OR the method...they allow IMA principles to develop inherent in their technique. except you and other self-proclaimed IMAists don't consider them knowledgeable of IMA principles, since they don't think, look or train in those terms. I believe you are wrong. You may be judging solely by the look and feel of body dynamics instead of accounting for the result of them.

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#406184 - 09/09/08 02:33 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree... since obviously you and other self-professed IMA experts seem to have a very different idea of what "internal" means...

If it were simply "relaxed" power, I guess you and these other experts are the knowledgeable ones then... and I'll defer to you lot in future.

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#406185 - 09/09/08 02:46 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Hey, I wanted to point out along this line of debate...I think the equation of Sanchin with Waija is a little misleading, and is more the result of how most people do Sanchin (as some sort of muscular exertion excercise). I personally don't think it's intended to be that, and neither does my teacher as far as I know:

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/books/external/way-of-sanchin-kata

Not trying to sell anything btw...I just wanted to point out that when you see someone doing Sanchin like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KprSXB25BDA

It's probably not the best assumption to think we all do things this way.

I have to admit Ed has a point, i've learned skills similar to the IMA i've been exposed to in Karate, they look different, but they seem to result in similar bodyskills, at least for people who are much more developed in this department than myself.

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#406186 - 09/09/08 05:52 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
The fact that individual practices may vary does not make it any less so. On what basis do you make that statement?

What "similar skills to IMA" would these be? How do you differentiate "internal" vs "external"? Or are you simply conveniently lumping them all together and suggesting you practice some mish mash "middle way"?

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#406187 - 09/09/08 08:04 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA




Interesting choice. I believe we reviewed this video here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...part=2&vc=1

I will let my comments from that thread stand - that video seemed very much fake to me.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#406188 - 09/09/08 11:20 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: MattJ]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Sorry eyrie.

I tend to support your arguments about internal arts, but I don't consider that video any real indicator of "internal" movement (in the sense of bagua, xingyi or taiji).

If you really want to see an example of an old codger doing internal arts, check out this video (with a young Tim Cartmell as uke).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1A6YorAh2k

You'll have to wait until the 1.25 mark for some applications which is where you there is a real contrast between this video with the video in eyrie's post.

Yes, he's old and doddering. But is he doing honest, simple techniques? And would he beat the pants off any other senior citizen (including, I dare say, the gentleman who is demonstrating in the video posted by eyrie)?

You'll also notice an absence of "jumping" by Tim Cartmell...

For those who don't know Tim by reputation, he has regularly competed in full contact and BJJ tournaments in the far east. If you want some "younger man's internal footage" check him out. His skill is outstanding.

Otherwise check out any footage you can of legendary street fighter Wang Shujin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3331hHtPcbU&feature=related
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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