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#406129 - 09/01/08 02:07 AM Could use some help
CaptCollins Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 4
Yeah this is one of those ki threads so deal with it
Im 17 now, when I first found out about these things like these invisible energys I never knew I had I pretty much flipped out I was 12 when i first stumbled across something on the internet. Of course then i figured i was on the road to becoming a super saiyan aha but yet here i am still wondering what exactly is it and what is the full extent of its power. Ill usually look into it every once and a while when im bored some nights and tonight I came across some very long study.
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nem102
I find so many mixed opinions on this its really hard to fine actual facts about things. Yes I can feel it in my hands or anywhere in my body if I concentrate. Yeah i went through the whole "ball" making phase and although its silly I can certainly control concentration and focus a little better. ANYWHOOO.. Basically what im wondering is if there is any, what can I gain from this. How can i use it to better myself and my life? I mean ive been messing aroudn with it for 5 years now so im just kind of curious to know the extent of this? I dunno if ki is used in reiki or whats the deal with that. But im looking for some way to apply it to my martial arts if at all possible. Lol hope i didnt miss anything.
~Thanks.

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#406130 - 09/02/08 07:52 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: CaptCollins]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
The ki epicenter of anyone's body is located just above their right buttock. Focus on that spot and, in time, you will be able to do amazing things.

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#406131 - 09/02/08 08:01 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: fileboy2002]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Don't waste your time looking for such answers on the internet.
The best thing to do is find a qualified Taichi Chuan teacher. If there is not one near you, read books by Dr Yang Jwing-Ming from YMAA.

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#406132 - 09/02/08 09:00 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: CaptCollins]
BrianS Offline
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Some people's minds are so open their brains fall out.
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#406133 - 09/03/08 12:05 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: CaptCollins]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
"Yes I can feel it in my hands or anywhere in my body if I concentrate."

don't rule out the more plausable explainations such as that 'feeling' being simply the awareness of your own heartbeat and bloodflow. also, if relaxed enough, you can literally hear the blood flowing thru your ears. it's a very faint high-pitched sound that some choose to explain in all sorts of wacky terms. misunderstood natural occurances often get explained as supernatural events....and with science funding in public schools at all time lows, is it any surprize we hear more teens like yourself asking about stuff like this?

'Santa' is any person dressed in a costume and fullfilling your image of santa, in order to get something (someone gets hired to wear the suit by a company wishing to attract potential customers and/or a public relations investment). -or- He could literally be a big round white guy on the North Pole making toys all year and making the annual rounds to Christians only. -or- He could be in metaphoric spirit only, in the form of anyone selflessly giving.


just like your view of Santa has evolved, don't take concepts like 'Chi' literally.


someone who thinks in terms of 'internal art concepts' cannot physically do anything that someone 'externally trained' cannot....they only think/wish they can, since they have invested so much time and effort (and probably money) into the concepts as much as the physical training.


don't waste your time/money on trying to get pokemon skills...it will lead to you claiming you have them and sounding rediculous when you refuse to show proof on video.


this forum section is loaded with posters that will never ever post a video of their claims. why? because the claims are false. don't be that guy. there's your help. good luck.

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#406134 - 09/03/08 10:17 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
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Well said, Ed!
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#406135 - 09/05/08 02:37 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: MattJ]
TheCrab Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
well said brian!

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#406136 - 09/05/08 03:34 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: TheCrab]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
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Loc: Australia
I was going to say something similar to Ed, but he's beaten me to it.

All I can add is that this thread shouldn't be an "internal arts" one. We need a section titled "fantasy".

In my experience you can practise internal arts without ever uttering the word "chi".
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#406137 - 09/05/08 07:34 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


In my experience you can practise internal arts without ever uttering the word "chi".




Wish more people understood this, my most impressive experience of internal power involved getting slammed into a gym wall harder than I would've thought possible by a guy who appeared to be putting forth little effort to do so, and was much smaller and older than me.

He never said anything about chi then or now, but you feel what "internal" really is.

Most arts that train with internal skills have a variety of "tests" you can do to see where you are at...as an example offhand Aiki--type stuff has what I think is called aiki -age, someone who is good at this can send you rocketing up off of your knees with very little movement, I've met and trained with Karate and some CIMA people who can do similar stuff standing.

Basically CaptCollins, IMO there is no point in thinking about any sort of esoteric understanding of internal MA (i.e. how much qi flow you have or whatever) if you can't pass simple, physical tests to determine whether or not you can use your frame in an "internal" manner.

Can you do something like Aiki-age or similar and send a guy much heavier than you reeling? If not why on earth are you concerned with all this esoteric stuff, you need tanglible results before worrying about any of that, stuff you just "feel" isn't good enough.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/05/08 07:42 PM)

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#406138 - 09/05/08 10:50 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
That's because he's 17 and on the road to becoming a super saiyan... he's confusing internal skills with DBZ skills - which are obviously not the same thing. One's wishful fantasy, and the other is, well, a cartoon...

Besides, everyone knows your ki epicenter is in your seika no tanden... and the tattoo goes on the right butt cheek.


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#406139 - 09/06/08 03:16 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Ah cool, another thread that has the opportunity for all our 'internal' experts to spill over their vast experience of Taiji, Aikido and the likes without ever having done it. And how they can link a naive, but innocent question from a teenager to attack something they've yet never done and don't understand. I got asked a question from a guy bashing Tai Chi the other day, "Yeah, but would I be allowed to wrestle? or would I just have to do Tai Chi?" which kinda gave me a very good inclination of his grasp pf the art he was slagging off. Made him amusing rather than annoying, kinda like the way I view Ed's pathetic dribble nowadays.
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#406140 - 09/06/08 04:55 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Gavin]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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I do taijiquan (since 1990), as well as xingyiquan (since '93) and baguazhang (since '05). Yet you will note that I do not think the initial question warrants more than a summary dismissal. Why? Not to bash any art or to belittle the questioner, but simply because he is barking up the wrong tree.

That is not the same as saying I don't believe that internal arts are effective and rely on different principles.

"Chi" might be an internally consistent paradigm for describing internal arts concepts, but it is just that - a "handy" (for some) descriptive paradigm: it is not, in my view, a scientifically correct/accurate one. Internal consistency does not equal fact.

To the extent that the questioner "feels" chi, I suspect this is not productive of any martial application.

I "feel" certain things when I have done a move correctly in the internal arts: some might call it "chi", but others would call it "awareness of efficient movement" or "flow" etc. But what I "feel" is also the product of almost 3 decades of continuous training. I didn't have this "feeling" when I was 17 nor is it feasible/possible that I would have, imo. So what the questioner "feels" at 17 and what I "feel" today are 2 different things.

In my teens I too wondered whether the "pins and needles" etc. I was feeling could translate to some sort of "chi power". They never did. I still wish there were such "power". Wishing doesn't make it so.

The very fact that the initial questioner wonders how he can use this "chi" he feels for martial purposes (when he hasn't yet found a use himself) should at least indicate to him the possibility that it cannot be so used...

The reality can, however, be just as exciting, especially when you realise the efficiency of movement and power generation possible with internal arts practise (albeit with many, many years of practise and refinement). I say this as an "external arts" practitioner of many years who appreciates/respects simple, old-fashioned "biffo". The best internal arts masters were no stranger to the latter...
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#406141 - 09/06/08 04:56 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Yep, this forum is loaded all right... with armchair internalists spouting sage advice and DBZ super saiyan wannabees...

So, from the comfort of my office chair, and keyboard to an Intenret kiosk near you... want some sage advice, "Capt"? Go find a qualified instructor who can do these things and is willing and able to teach you. Good luck! And may the Force be with you... ROTFL!

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#406142 - 09/06/08 05:55 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Gavin]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Ah cool, another thread that has the opportunity for all our 'internal' experts to spill over their vast experience of Taiji, Aikido and the likes without ever having done it. And how they can link a naive, but innocent question from a teenager to attack something they've yet never done and don't understand. I got asked a question from a guy bashing Tai Chi the other day, "Yeah, but would I be allowed to wrestle? or would I just have to do Tai Chi?" which kinda gave me a very good inclination of his grasp pf the art he was slagging off. Made him amusing rather than annoying, kinda like the way I view Ed's pathetic dribble nowadays.




I don't know if you and Eyrie are referring to me here or what, I don't think I said anything out of line though, and frankly on a forum where no one meets in person everyone has nothing more than words to go by, so we could all be 'armchair internalists' or whatnot.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/06/08 05:59 PM)

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#406143 - 09/06/08 07:02 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Nah, I wasn't referring to you Zach... I was referring to myself...

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#406144 - 09/06/08 10:18 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
exactly. and it's the paradigms themselves which are being packaged and sold. With varying degrees of subtlty, the forum is just a big marketing test arena for them.
Some here resort to try and discredit opposing views in order to protect their investments. No real opinion is given by them, they only give vague open-ended quips to provide themselves wiggle-room if the thread turns into a debate. or the lazier and less-imaginative approach of insulting in the hopes of silencing it.

on topic - to the original poster:
The 'study' you reference, from Ohnishi.

don't believe everything you read, just because it has the word 'study'. The scoop on these authors are that they are in fact selling a product called "Nishino Breathing Method". books, DVD, seminars, etc. They make up studies and findings to support their own product's paradigm. they do it with a 'scientific study' format to try and give the illusion of credability. why? so people will buy into it.

for some reference:
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...ue#Post15982486


by definition, what these guys are producing are psudoscience. aka junk science in the name of marketing.

send the authors an e-mail yourself. you'll get a sales pitch for whatever Ki-master, Kozo Nishino is selling now.


people invested in this ki/chi paradigm will tend to insult and discredit instead of addressing the suggestion that the article you reference is a marketing ad in disguise....and certainly don't invest any hope of the moderators in this section to moderate anything other than the oppossing views.

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#406145 - 09/07/08 04:15 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:


I don't know if you and Eyrie are referring to me here or what, I don't think I said anything out of line though, and frankly on a forum where no one meets in person everyone has nothing more than words to go by, so we could all be 'armchair internalists' or whatnot.




Nope I was referring to you mate, and that's kind of the point that myself and Eyrie have been making for quite sometimes. Most people, like Ed, seem to be more inclined to stick their heads in the sand and talk out of their arse... You know the people who are obsessed by the subject but refuse to actually expeirence, just talk about it, pretty much like they do with most of the Martial Arts conversations they have. Kind of like teenage boys who spend all their time reading porn and talking about sex... They amuse me!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#406146 - 09/07/08 10:13 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Gavin]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Not sure what you mean there, Gav. Ed has posted video and met people from the forum in person - something that others, like Eyrie, cannot say. Ed has also been training for quite a bit longer than many others here, including you and me.

You may not agree with him, but that doesn't mean his experience should be taken lightly. And didn't we all agree at one point that chi = body mechanics, anyway?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#406147 - 09/07/08 02:18 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
as I mentioned: "Some here resort to try and discredit opposing views in order to protect their investments. No real opinion is given by them, they only give vague open-ended quips to provide themselves wiggle-room if the thread turns into a debate. or the lazier and less-imaginative approach of insulting in the hopes of silencing it."

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#406148 - 09/07/08 02:52 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
disagreement is fine if Gav knew how to disagree - apparently all he knows is how to insult. Gav is geering himself up to someday author/run and sell books/DVDs/seminars/wellness centers, so he has a lot to protect when it comes to silencing debates in this section.

he hasn't even stated his objection. what is he oppossing? does he think the study cited is valid or even plausable? is he giving advice to the original poster that his personal experiences are validated by the study? does he think the study follows acceptable scientific method? did he even read the study? etc...he's not debating anything, just insulting the people providing alternate explainations to the first poster's experiences. basically he's demonstrating that he opposses anyone that doesn't buy into the paradigm he's invested in - but then doesn't give a why he opposses it. thats not debate, thats dictatorship thru bullying. If that's where his internal art training has taken him, to low-functioning anger, then I fail to see he would be an example of it's advantage....or even a good example of a public forum moderator for that matter.


back on topic - a 17 year old came to the thread with a 'study' in hand. as Matt reminds from other debates, that it is pretty much agreed that chi/ki is a paradgm/training method of body dynamics. not as a physical internal force that only people with a high midichlorian count and proper jedi training can tap into.

which brings me to the earlier opinion, that there are no chi/ki-based trained people who can do anything that someone using a different method cannot do....except maybe sell more etherial-sounding material to the wishful thinking.

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#406149 - 09/07/08 03:20 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Ed bit. Cool! And he is still talking about Chi....I love it! And besides you gave my last article a good review...oh how fickle fans can be!


Edited by Gavin (09/07/08 03:27 PM)
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#406150 - 09/07/08 08:10 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia

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#406151 - 09/07/08 08:13 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia

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#406152 - 09/07/08 09:28 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

"Some here resort to try and discredit opposing views in order to protect their investments. No real opinion is given by them, they only give vague open-ended quips to provide themselves wiggle-room if the thread turns into a debate. or the lazier and less-imaginative approach of insulting in the hopes of silencing it."

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#406153 - 09/07/08 10:25 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Talking about yourself again, Ed?

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#406154 - 09/07/08 10:28 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: CaptCollins]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Im 17 now, when I first found out about these things like these invisible energys





This is fairly typical given your age. With any luck, you'll grow out of it.

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#406155 - 09/07/08 10:42 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Gav,

Should moderators be using their posts to bash members of this forum?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#406156 - 09/07/08 10:48 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
unfortunately, many don't grow out of it - nor want to.

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#406157 - 09/07/08 10:53 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Brian, I don't take it personal - he's just protecting his interests to make a living in a chi/ki specialist field. so of course he doesn't want opposing thoughts on this subject in his forum section that he's been guarding for years.

they are trying to create a reason to lock the thread.

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#406158 - 09/07/08 11:26 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Ed_Morris]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Loc: Australia
I have to say that your skepticism should come to the fore the moment you hear someone apply the plural to the word "energy".
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#406159 - 09/07/08 11:30 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: CaptCollins]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GmXEYGqfIU&feature=related

the guy in the video throwing people with his jedi powers is Kozo Nishino - who is the sensei and subject of the guys who wrote the advertisement disgused as research you referenced.

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#406160 - 09/08/08 12:18 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Cool... synchronized jumping breakfalls... the next Olympic event.

Check out this whacked out nutjob...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ&feature=related


Edited by eyrie (09/08/08 12:32 AM)

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#406161 - 09/08/08 12:55 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Ed_Morris]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GmXEYGqfIU&feature=related

the guy in the video throwing people with his jedi powers is Kozo Nishino - who is the sensei and subject of the guys who wrote the advertisement disgused as research you referenced.




NATO could use this guy!

The part I like best is where he has all his students running backwards at a tremendous rate of knots, right across a field. Good thing they did it outside!

Does anyone actually believe this stuff?

It's a mystery to me how he gets so many people to play along.
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#406162 - 09/08/08 01:16 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
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BTW - the title of that "research paper" says it all:

"A Hypothetical Mechanism for the Generation and Transmission of Ki-energy" (my underlining).

Note also:

"Without having a scientific model, we cannot advance the research. Therefore, we will present in this article a hypothetical model for the mechanism of how Ki-energy is generated, transmitted through air and received by another individual. Obviously, this model is still preliminary, and it needs further rigorous investigation."

As to the last sentence, I agree!

A paper of equivalent scientific weight might be:

"Is the invisible, intangible spaghetti monster in my garage green or red - a hypothetical mechanism for determining the color of pasta-based supernatural life-forms".

We can all see that such a paper is necessary in order to advance research in this area!
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#406163 - 09/08/08 02:46 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: BrianS]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Gav,

Should moderators be using their posts to bash members of this forum?




I have been asked to review this thread, and have done so. Lord knows I am the last one to avoid a good bit of mud slinging on here, but I would like to think that any such response i have made has been provoked by anothers action, ie. post content; and not been unprovoked other than having an agenda against the poster.
Gavin, you have taken a dislike to Ed, we get it. I dont see any reason for your reaction to his opening post on here, which was actually very unjudgemental and reasonable.
I am asking you to take a breath, and moderate your own responses on here. You get enough 'dragonballers' in your forum as it is, so I find it amazing that you would want to take a good thread off topic so readily.
Chill dude, and I will try and heed my own advice also
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#406164 - 09/08/08 03:06 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Cord]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Gavin, you have taken a dislike to Ed, we get it. I dont see any reason for your reaction to his opening post on here, which was actually very unjudgemental and reasonable.




I haven't taken a dislike to Ed per-say, well I have, but that is over the past couple of years of discussing stuff with the venom filled pussball (doh! Sorry Cord. Que Brian you can bitch again). Mate this isn't an Internal Martial Arts forum, is a speculative fire range for porn lovers to discuss sex, ooops Martial Arts. I'm just trolling here for personal amusement, no other agenda other than that. Just a laugh, which is what I've had so I'll take my leave now as Cordy baby is one few guys on the forum whom still carries some clout in my eyes!

Brian - I resigned my Mod position ages ago as it wasn't something I wanted my name against anymore....but the speed of tectonic plate shift is quicker than stuff here. I personally would've sacked me ages ago.

By the way, could someone send me all the royalties from these DVD's, books and seminars I'm selling? I ain't seen a f*cking penny from them yet..


Edited by Gavin (09/08/08 03:10 AM)
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#406165 - 09/08/08 03:07 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Cord]
BrianS Offline
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Thanks guys!

The guys in the videos are just silly. Unfortunately, some people believe what they see without question. It's okay with me,but don't jump down my throat because we don't agree.

Kno whut I'm sayin' homeskillet!
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#406166 - 09/08/08 03:10 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Gavin]
BrianS Offline
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Gavin,

I've always respected your posts and you personally. I loved the combat arena clip you posted way back. I just didn't see why you went after Ed like that. BUT, seeing how he didn't mind and you don't either I guess I was apparently being nosey rosey!! See ya round.
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#406167 - 09/08/08 07:17 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

Cool... synchronized jumping breakfalls... the next Olympic event.

Check out this whacked out nutjob...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ&feature=related



don't be too hard on Ueshiba, he was old in the video and, like good Aikidoka, his students were reacting the way they were expected to react. so I'd say the video shows the power of respect.

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#406168 - 09/08/08 07:24 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Gavin, Cord - no hard feelings. not taken personally at all. actually, I don't know what Gavin is even protesting. He still hasn't given any opinion/advice as to the thread topic or referenced 'study'.
He comes across as a babbling drunk with Tourette syndrome who randomly yells angry obscenities to passerbys.

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#406169 - 09/08/08 09:24 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
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Not random just at you. Babbling yes, angry no. Drunk, not yet unfortunately I'm working. Bone of contention with you? Definitely, which out of respect for Cord I'll keep to my little ol' self. Opinions on this thread? Doesn't interest me, as I said it's a bit of a giggle.
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#406170 - 09/08/08 01:39 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Gavin]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Regardless of who has done what in terms of this specific argument, one thing that is quite annoying on FA.com is that you can predict pretty much exactly what will happen whenever someone posts anything in the internal arts forum.

Typically what will happen is almost immediately a large group of skeptics will bombard the thread, and often the same actors will get involved in a back and forth pissing match.

I don't mind the skepticism, in fact I share some of it, however it's a little daunting when every thread goes the same direction, with the same (often largely unqualified) things said regardless of how it started.

There is a lot of baiting that goes on on this board, and sometimes I wonder if alot of the conversations we have are motivated by any real desire to converse, or do we just want to talk "at" eachother?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/08/08 01:44 PM)

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#406171 - 09/08/08 02:42 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
MattJ Offline
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I don't think it's "bombarding" a thread to ask questions or ask for proof of something mentioned. Stonewalling and insults are less agreeable to me.
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#406172 - 09/08/08 03:10 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: MattJ]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

I don't think it's "bombarding" a thread to ask questions or ask for proof of something mentioned. Stonewalling and insults are less agreeable to me.




Dude, almost every thread that gets posted in this forum ends up with the same clique of dudes attacking it, you can call that whatever you want, imo it goes way beyond the realm of simple healthy debate.

BTW, accusing someone of being a sellout, just wanting to sell DvD's etc.(like Ed does all the time) is just as much an insult as simply calling someone a name, no one in these conversations has been innocent of this kind of behavior. I don't mean to single out Ed, he has alot of great things to say, but you guys really do tend to look the other way at some people's actions.

I don't exactly have a dog in this race, being a more 'casual' member of the forum, but I tell ya what, there is a real double standard around here regarding people's behavior on the forums, and I think alot of the time some of you guys that have been on here for a while are completely blind to it.

You can call it what you want, but from the standpoint of an outside observer it often looks more like a club than a forum.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/08/08 03:15 PM)

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#406173 - 09/08/08 03:52 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
MattJ Offline
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Wasn't looking the other way, dude. I didn't say "Ed's insults are OK, but Gav's and Eyrie's are not". But it is just as consistent that any reasonable statement or question in this forum is met with arrogant dismissal or outright hostility. Just like in this thread.
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#406174 - 09/08/08 06:49 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Ed_Morris Offline
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#406175 - 09/08/08 07:08 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
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You didn't have to say it, but you may as well have, by tacitly glossing over Ed's thinly veiled insults.

The thread topic is a joke anyway... a juvenile question borne out of an equally juvenile fantasy and overactive imagination. As Ed pointed out, the "research" is bunk. This Nishino dude is bunk. There are so many tells in the video Ed posted that if one were clued into, they would immediately realize just how bunk he is. And I'm not even talking about the obvious fact that his uke are practically jumping for him.

But since some of you armchair internalists know precisely what you're talking about, perhaps you could further enlighten the young CaptCollins as to WHY what Nishino is doing is bunk?

What is he doing in the video that is so obviously not internal? I don't think it is internal either, but I'm curious to see what your thoughts are.

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#406176 - 09/08/08 07:52 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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here's the Nishino video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GmXEYGqfIU&feature=related

here's the Ueshiba video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ&feature=related


my untrained and unelightened eye sees the same thing in both videos, but in two different contexts:

The Ueshiba video is acquiescence.

The Nishino video is willful deception.

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#406177 - 09/08/08 08:09 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Care to explain why? Why is complicity in one video "acquiescence" and the other is "deception"?

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#406178 - 09/08/08 08:36 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

What is he doing in the video that is so obviously not internal? I don't think it is internal either, but I'm curious to see what your thoughts are.




I don't recall saying it wasn't internal or external. It was simply fake. You can't stop people without touching them like he did. This has been proven over and over again by the few ki-folk that were willing to try it against true resistance.

I offered up a video of Genki Sudo as a possible example of a MMA guy that could be described as having good "internal" power ie; very efficient body mechanics with minimal effort.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15964732

The response seem to be that it is NOT, but little explanation is offered as to why not. I have also asked for any type of video that would demonstrate "good" internal power, but have yet to see anything posted. This leads me to believe that there is no proof or explanation that internal training is any different or better than anything else.
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#406179 - 09/08/08 09:12 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
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#406180 - 09/08/08 09:13 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: MattJ]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Well, here is a video of some taiji masters fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4&feature=rec-fresh
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#406181 - 09/08/08 09:26 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

Care to explain why? Why is complicity in one video "acquiescence" and the other is "deception"?



not sure that I can, but I'll try.

There is a two section answer to each. theres the psychological and theres the physical.


In the Ueshiba video, and what I've heard of his reputation, I believe the students are genuinely acting out of respect and reacting the way that is expected. This culture likely didn't grow overnight. It starts with students being more and more subconsciously compliant as respect grows for the precipitator of the technique. If that behavior is nutured, what happens is a culture of respectful compliance. If that training relationship/culture distorts to the point where the practitioner can no longer apply the technique with the same effect to an outsider as he can to a student within the culture, then you have functional art degredation. If that culture persists in a bubble, the training atmosphere can breed cult-mentality delusion. I believe that is the level of acquiescence I am witnessing in that video. Ueshiba was god status in the eyes of his students by that point in his life, to deny him the effectiveness of his intent is to deny the art. so they react. Their physical reaction is in concert with Ueshiba's intent. The timing and direction of their reaction clues me into that.


the Nishino compliance is willful deception. the attackers are not timed with Nishino's intent. the intent is disemboddied from their reactions and are pre-determined. I don't think either party entirely believes in what they are doing or their interaction. instead, both have separate tasks: wave a hand. fall backwards as far and as violent as possible.
That, plus my previous suspiscion based on the write-ups, fake psudo-scientific studies and material I've seen of Nishino, I believe the motivation is a combination of materialistic and egotistic goals. It is calculated deception. however, whenever someone is in that mode for long, they will likely start to actually believe their own BS. Dillman, Dante and Villari are other examples.

Even though both videos show basically the same thing, their context is different both physically and psychologically.

that's my best guess.


[add] as to the 'ol man' push hands guy video you just referenced - I can't tell which compliance is in play (intentional or respectful), perhaps a bit of both, but I do know what it feels like to get hit hard with relaxed power...and you don't go sailing backwards; you drop on the spot.
I do lean towards deception though, since these are the guys who are marketing their one of many 'Temple resorts' in China that has become a tourist industry.

Even if the old man is generating that power and it's not completely fake, I'm not interested. I'm interested in the power that drops someone, not push away.

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#406182 - 09/08/08 10:12 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Perhaps Nishino's ukes suck more than Ueshiba's stooges? Maybe Ueshiba trained his uke's so that their timing was better? If you didn't know of Ueshiba's reputation, would your assessment be any different I wonder?

So, "internal" (to you) means push away and "real" power means drop them? Interesting perspective... based on a limited demo. Do you honestly believe that one form of power generation has no merit over another because it doesn't have, in your eyes, the "ideal results"?

So, why don't we see more hard hitting with relaxed power in MMA competitions?

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#406183 - 09/09/08 12:32 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

Perhaps Nishino's ukes suck more than Ueshiba's stooges? Maybe Ueshiba trained his uke's so that their timing was better?


not sure why you are so hard on Ueshiba. I don't think it's uncommon for students of an elderly (80+) sensei to give leeway enough to comply to his demonstrations out of respect. It's just when that is cultured within the training method for too long, it could conceivably becomes the standard...and then beyond to transform into cult of personality delusion. as the video demonstrated.


Quote:

If you didn't know of Ueshiba's reputation, would your assessment be any different I wonder?


probably. I try and use everything (agreed, not much) I know to form my opinions and then change those opinions when more is learned. I'm more times wrong than I am right.

Quote:

So, "internal" (to you) means push away and "real" power means drop them? Interesting perspective... based on a limited demo.


no. never said that. I said based on the demo of the 3rd video (Chinese old man demonstrating on students within an advertisement clip), doesn't look like dynamics I'd be interested in. (technique-wise or marketing-wise). I don't mind others staying at his family resort for $4000 bucks + airfare for 2 weeks and learning how to slowly push people though. Have at it.
http://www.lifeqicenter.com/chinaretreat2009.html


Quote:

Do you honestly believe that one form of power generation has no merit over another because it doesn't have, in your eyes, the "ideal results"?


I believe one form is better over another, yes. although I argue points, I don't believe everyone needs to believe what I believe in order for them to be right.


Quote:

So, why don't we see more hard hitting with relaxed power in MMA competitions?


there is less opportunity to see picture perfect displays of body dynamics since both people are really trying to hit each other, non-scripted, and with followed-thru intent - I see more internal/relaxed power inherent in a skilled MMA fighter than I do seeing two people push hands.

The look and feel of "IMA" has become trademarked to the point that the look and feel has become the goal instead of the method. well, believe it or not, what some arts do is not make it the goal OR the method...they allow IMA principles to develop inherent in their technique. except you and other self-proclaimed IMAists don't consider them knowledgeable of IMA principles, since they don't think, look or train in those terms. I believe you are wrong. You may be judging solely by the look and feel of body dynamics instead of accounting for the result of them.

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#406184 - 09/09/08 02:33 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree... since obviously you and other self-professed IMA experts seem to have a very different idea of what "internal" means...

If it were simply "relaxed" power, I guess you and these other experts are the knowledgeable ones then... and I'll defer to you lot in future.

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#406185 - 09/09/08 02:46 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Hey, I wanted to point out along this line of debate...I think the equation of Sanchin with Waija is a little misleading, and is more the result of how most people do Sanchin (as some sort of muscular exertion excercise). I personally don't think it's intended to be that, and neither does my teacher as far as I know:

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/books/external/way-of-sanchin-kata

Not trying to sell anything btw...I just wanted to point out that when you see someone doing Sanchin like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KprSXB25BDA

It's probably not the best assumption to think we all do things this way.

I have to admit Ed has a point, i've learned skills similar to the IMA i've been exposed to in Karate, they look different, but they seem to result in similar bodyskills, at least for people who are much more developed in this department than myself.

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#406186 - 09/09/08 05:52 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
eyrie Offline
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The fact that individual practices may vary does not make it any less so. On what basis do you make that statement?

What "similar skills to IMA" would these be? How do you differentiate "internal" vs "external"? Or are you simply conveniently lumping them all together and suggesting you practice some mish mash "middle way"?

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#406187 - 09/09/08 08:04 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA




Interesting choice. I believe we reviewed this video here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...part=2&vc=1

I will let my comments from that thread stand - that video seemed very much fake to me.
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#406188 - 09/09/08 11:20 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: MattJ]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Sorry eyrie.

I tend to support your arguments about internal arts, but I don't consider that video any real indicator of "internal" movement (in the sense of bagua, xingyi or taiji).

If you really want to see an example of an old codger doing internal arts, check out this video (with a young Tim Cartmell as uke).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1A6YorAh2k

You'll have to wait until the 1.25 mark for some applications which is where you there is a real contrast between this video with the video in eyrie's post.

Yes, he's old and doddering. But is he doing honest, simple techniques? And would he beat the pants off any other senior citizen (including, I dare say, the gentleman who is demonstrating in the video posted by eyrie)?

You'll also notice an absence of "jumping" by Tim Cartmell...

For those who don't know Tim by reputation, he has regularly competed in full contact and BJJ tournaments in the far east. If you want some "younger man's internal footage" check him out. His skill is outstanding.

Otherwise check out any footage you can of legendary street fighter Wang Shujin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3331hHtPcbU&feature=related
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#406189 - 09/09/08 11:43 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: dandjurdjevic]
harlan Offline
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Now I'm thoroughly confused...Dan...what makes this demonstration, qualifies it, as 'internal'? Guess I don't have a clue what 'internal' is...because this just looks like a good understanding of body mechanics and motion that can be found in...say...Goju (an 'external' art).

Quote:

..."internal" movement (in the sense of bagua, xingyi or taiji).

If you really want to see an example of an old codger doing internal arts, check out this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1A6YorAh2k



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#406190 - 09/09/08 12:30 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

So, why don't we see more hard hitting with relaxed power in MMA competitions?




Who says we don't?
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#406191 - 09/09/08 04:19 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

The fact that individual practices may vary does not make it any less so. On what basis do you make that statement?

What "similar skills to IMA" would these be? How do you differentiate "internal" vs "external"? Or are you simply conveniently lumping them all together and suggesting you practice some mish mash "middle way"?




Lol no, I don't practice a mishmash anything, I train in Goju with a little teeny weeny bit of Judo crosstraining on the side as it were... my differentiation of internal vs. external I suppose is fairly vague and i'd rather leave all the defining up to you. I have seen that 'internal skills' of weight manipulation etc aren't the exclusive property of Neija and Aiki arts...I guess that's what i'm saying...hopefully that makes sense?

All I am saying is that I have felt the same bodyskills in some Karate guys as I have some IMA people, though of course i'm sure it's still down to training methods.

Earlier I mentioned aiki-age as an example (tell me if I am naming it wrong)of 'feeling' internal skills, I have felt the same force from guys doing things standing as well. For the record I assume it's all physics and don't put much stock in toher explanations.

I am suggesting that the trappings and external form don't always look and feel the same, but they might produce the same results.

- Mr. MishMashy

P.S. I like Yang Wing-Mings explanation of the terms internal and external the best, where it is more a question of initial training method and what it progesses to, than a black and white strict definition of arts that are purely one or the other.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/09/08 04:28 PM)

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#406192 - 09/09/08 08:36 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
eyrie Offline
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Quote:

Zach_Zinn: I think the equation of Sanchin with Waija is a little misleading, and is more the result of how most people do Sanchin (as some sort of muscular exertion excercise).


Certainly the initial approach is different, and what it progresses to is *generally* the same goal, but it still doesn't detract from the fact that Sanchin is waijia. So how is that "misleading"? Unless, of course, you have information to the contrary? BTW, it's more than just "weight manipulation"...

Dan, I'll give you WangShuJin, but... he's not 94 in that video, and he's not quite doing the same thing as the old bagua dude. OK maybe at 0:21 where he borrows the uke's force, and adds it back. What the bagua dude is doing is using uke's own force to bounce himself off. That's merely a demonstration of basic peng jin, is it not?

How old is XiePeiQi in that video? Personally, I don't think that's a good video that clearly demonstrates "good internal skills". I don't think Xie's as "connected" as he could be, particularly at 2:05 and 2:16 where he nearly loses it, but I accept the fact that it is a demo, and he's an old man, and Tim isn't giving anything in terms of force.

I know it's hard to find examples of "good internal skills" on the net, but I finally found the video I was looking for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Qex7QFLss

0:09 - peng
0:22 - lu(?)
0:36 - peng
0:51 - cai(?)
1:03 - peng
1:30 - ji(?)

To me, those are extrapolations of using uke's own force against himself, and adding to it - which is what the bagua dude was *demonstrating*, albeit at a more advanced (hmmm... basic?) level.

I think it's easy to see things at one's level of understanding, and anything beyond that would seem extraordinary or even fake. Personally, I'd love to see any MMA dude do anything remotely martial at age 94.

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#406193 - 09/09/08 09:58 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

I know it's hard to find examples of "good internal skills" on the net, but I finally found the video I was looking for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Qex7QFLss




Now we're getting somewhere. This video is much more believable to me. I have seen and felt that kind of technique before. His mechanics, while subtle and efficient, are still there, unlike some of the other vids where the guys are not even moving or not touching the opponents. Still not seeing any difference between him and Genki Sudo in efficiency or relaxation, though.

And isn't Helio Gracie still practicing in his 80's?
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#406194 - 09/09/08 10:13 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

BTW, it's more than just "weight manipulation"...




Duh....I had hoped that was implied, do you want to try to list off everything that says 'internal' to me?

Let me ask you what you think makes Sanchin be it from Fuzhou or Naha or wherever external?

I'm just curious because it seems to be conventional wisdom that it is, but I don't see anymore argument in favor of that other than the usual thing where people assume that everyone doing Sanchin is training it as some kind of PT (complete with overdone ibuki breathing and puckedred butt) instead of a way to build a martial frame.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/09/08 10:16 PM)

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#406195 - 09/09/08 10:32 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
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Last I checked, there's a difference between 94 and 80...

I don't know about not touching the opponent... where have I proferred video examples to that effect?

Not moving? See those timeframes above... sure he's moving into position, but at the point of the throw/takedown, he's pretty much standing still...

I think people need to understand the difference between a static demo and dynamic application... they're not the same thing, even though the applied concept is the same. Can concepts explicated in a static demo be applied dynamically? Would they look different? Are they based on the same principle or concept? (The answer is "yes" to all BTW).

If you can't understand the concept demonstrated statically, how can you understand how it works dynamically? See Ashe Higgs's response in the Fake or Real thread.

Now, "efficiency and relaxation" aside, is what Sudo does fundamentally different in principle or concept? I'd say it is at a very fundamental level. One is using his spine, kua and legs to generate power in a very different way to the other, which, although still using his whole body, is generating power in a very different way.

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#406196 - 09/09/08 10:49 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
The difference is in the intent. Sanchin is wai jia liao fa derived from Southern Shaolin traditions. It's primary focus is on developing the muscles, bones and tendons - aka yijing.

That individuals can choose to do Sanchin (or any other form of exercise) using xin, yi, and (oooh.. that BAD word!) qi does not make it an "internal" form. It's a subtle distinction between an "internal" form (is there even such a thing!!??), and doing a form "internally".

You see my point? Professing to do IMA "because I do sanchin" is misleading...

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#406197 - 09/09/08 11:19 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

The difference is in the intent. Sanchin is wai jia liao fa derived from Southern Shaolin traditions. It's primary focus is on developing the muscles, bones and tendons - aka yijing.

That individuals can choose to do Sanchin (or any other form of exercise) using xin, yi, and (oooh.. that BAD word!) qi does not make it an "internal" form. It's a subtle distinction between an "internal" form (is there even such a thing!!??), and doing a form "internally".

You see my point? Professing to do IMA "because I do sanchin" is misleading...




Yeah..I see your point, but....it seems like the difference between doing a form internally and doing an internal form has to be one of semantics.

Maybe that's just because my own exposure to traditionally internal MA is not huge.

Anyway topic for another thread I guess.

I'm also gonna throw out there that in my view and the way i'm taught sanchin is to develop a connected body first, not for tendon strengthening, or stronger bones or any of that.

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#406198 - 09/09/08 11:43 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
No... it's not semantics... doing a form or simply moving, using "internal" mechanics is not the same thing as doing an "internal form". Firstly, there is no such thing as an "internal form". All forms are external. It is the expression of internal body movement that takes form. It's the same difference as someone learning aikido waza and thinking it is aiki. It's not. It's the expression of aiki that results in aikido waza... not the other way round.

What do you mean by "connected body"?

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#406199 - 09/10/08 10:18 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Last I checked, there's a difference between 94 and 80...




Helio Gracie born October 1, 1913. Making him how old......?

BTW - If this is true:

Quote:

I think people need to understand the difference between a static demo and dynamic application... they're not the same thing, even though the applied concept is the same. Can concepts explicated in a static demo be applied dynamically? Would they look different? Are they based on the same principle or concept? (The answer is "yes" to all BTW).




Then how would you be able to tell this:

Quote:

I'd say it is at a very fundamental level. One is using his spine, kua and legs to generate power in a very different way to the other, which, although still using his whole body, is generating power in a very different way.




Wouldn't you have to "feel it" to know?
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#406200 - 09/10/08 10:48 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

I know it's hard to find examples of "good internal skills" on the net, but I finally found the video I was looking for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Qex7QFLss




Your video shows taiji pushing that is good for show (and illustrates some basic concepts of momentum transfer), not combat taiji. Taiji is not designed to "push" opponents. I disagree with you about XiePeiQi as well. He might not be an example of "the best bagua I've seen" by a long shot. But he is b***dy marvellous for his age anyway. And his knowledge is very deep.

Harlan, you asked what makes it "internal"? I disagree with most of the people on this thread on this issue. It is internal because it is bagua... Bagua lines are clean, simple and direct. Yes, it wasn't magical. But that simplicity in movement is beguiling. It shows many years of technique isolation for the purposes of making it look (and feel) "easy".

Eyrie argues that all form is "external". To some extent this is true, because nothing is completely internal or external. However, as you will see from my article below external and internal martial arts have different approaches and goals. The internal arts have (through their approach) the fundamental goal of maximising impulse.

By contrast external arts have (through their approach) the fundamental goal of maximising power.

See:

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/09/hitting-harder-physics-made-easy.html


Edited by dandjurdjevic (09/10/08 11:23 AM)

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#406201 - 09/10/08 01:26 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: dandjurdjevic]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
The internal side,to me ,is me knowing my body and mind and how it works and how to apply it in all sorts of situations and positions to get the most power or the best pull or push or drag or whatever.
If I need to do a powerfull right hook and have more weight on my right leg its different mechanics and leverage etc than if i have more weight on my left.And in a fight no one can know what position a person will be in because its random and ever changing.
So I have to get a feel for my own personal body and whats going on.
Basicaly,to me, its Physiology and Biochemistry.
But once a person is in front of me trying to take my head of I have to concentrate on whats outside so its external and hope everything I worked on 'internaly' kicks in.
Though I definitly think knowing how to fight on a basic level must come first then looking deeper can come later.


This blog
http://stevemorris.livejournal.com/ has alot of great stuff on the 'internal' side and comes from a practical fighting angle (NHB).Some parts also explain Trad Chinese ideas in a modern,practical way.(Eg fa jing ,pu, tim, tun, toh


Edited by matxtx (09/10/08 01:54 PM)
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#406202 - 09/10/08 07:22 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: matxtx]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
You could define "internal" arts as you have matxtx. You could, I guess, define internal by reference to "efficient" etc. But then again I could define my own art as MMA (it is a bit of a mix, after all). It wouldn't be accurate in terms of who has already appropriated the name.

The fact is this: the internal martial arts of China are distinct from other martial systems: they have different techniques that rely on different factors for effectiveness. In short, they are different technically.

Have a look at the article I posted a while back "Internal vs. external martial arts".

As I said above, the principal distinction can be summed up as this: external arts (including that of Steve Morris - good value for real fighting) prioritise power. Internal arts prioritise impulse - ie. the transfer of momentum. Again, take a look at the end of my article "Hitting harder: physics made easy". This distinction flows through to the basic techniques - ie. the "form".
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#406203 - 09/10/08 08:06 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I must hasten to add that nothing precludes 'external' arts from having an 'internal' aspect. In fact every system is a mix. It is a question of your technical priority.

Put it this way - no strike can function without power. And no stike can be effective without impulse.
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#406204 - 09/12/08 08:20 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: CaptCollins]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello CaptCollins:

First, I will start by saying that anyone even moving around much less breathing at his age is a wonderful thing to see! He appears young and very spry. Wish I spoke his language so I could tell if he was lucid or not...

Anybody?

As to his mechnics, his speed, etc, some of the mechanics he's using seem the right angles, directions and so forth, so sure not being on the "receiveing end" of his technique, I suppose its possible.

But frankly, I'd love to "receive it" to be sure... myself .

Had any of his deflective "shrugs" not included the little trembling action at the end by the receipient I would have been more compelled to believe personally. But its plausible he has power... why not,

Stuart

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#406205 - 09/26/08 09:48 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Ed_Morris]
CaptCollins Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 4
Well thanks to the people who actually answered the question. Whoever called me a dbz wannabe can [censored] off though lol cause obviously you didnt read that first post very well. That was 5 years ago. I was just wondering what the pulsing feeling in my body was and if it could help me. Jesus, theres some serious [censored] on here. Again thanks for the people who helped.

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