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#406139 - 09/06/08 03:16 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Ah cool, another thread that has the opportunity for all our 'internal' experts to spill over their vast experience of Taiji, Aikido and the likes without ever having done it. And how they can link a naive, but innocent question from a teenager to attack something they've yet never done and don't understand. I got asked a question from a guy bashing Tai Chi the other day, "Yeah, but would I be allowed to wrestle? or would I just have to do Tai Chi?" which kinda gave me a very good inclination of his grasp pf the art he was slagging off. Made him amusing rather than annoying, kinda like the way I view Ed's pathetic dribble nowadays.
_________________________
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www.SHIKON.COM
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#406140 - 09/06/08 04:55 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Gavin]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I do taijiquan (since 1990), as well as xingyiquan (since '93) and baguazhang (since '05). Yet you will note that I do not think the initial question warrants more than a summary dismissal. Why? Not to bash any art or to belittle the questioner, but simply because he is barking up the wrong tree.

That is not the same as saying I don't believe that internal arts are effective and rely on different principles.

"Chi" might be an internally consistent paradigm for describing internal arts concepts, but it is just that - a "handy" (for some) descriptive paradigm: it is not, in my view, a scientifically correct/accurate one. Internal consistency does not equal fact.

To the extent that the questioner "feels" chi, I suspect this is not productive of any martial application.

I "feel" certain things when I have done a move correctly in the internal arts: some might call it "chi", but others would call it "awareness of efficient movement" or "flow" etc. But what I "feel" is also the product of almost 3 decades of continuous training. I didn't have this "feeling" when I was 17 nor is it feasible/possible that I would have, imo. So what the questioner "feels" at 17 and what I "feel" today are 2 different things.

In my teens I too wondered whether the "pins and needles" etc. I was feeling could translate to some sort of "chi power". They never did. I still wish there were such "power". Wishing doesn't make it so.

The very fact that the initial questioner wonders how he can use this "chi" he feels for martial purposes (when he hasn't yet found a use himself) should at least indicate to him the possibility that it cannot be so used...

The reality can, however, be just as exciting, especially when you realise the efficiency of movement and power generation possible with internal arts practise (albeit with many, many years of practise and refinement). I say this as an "external arts" practitioner of many years who appreciates/respects simple, old-fashioned "biffo". The best internal arts masters were no stranger to the latter...
_________________________
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#406141 - 09/06/08 04:56 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Yep, this forum is loaded all right... with armchair internalists spouting sage advice and DBZ super saiyan wannabees...

So, from the comfort of my office chair, and keyboard to an Intenret kiosk near you... want some sage advice, "Capt"? Go find a qualified instructor who can do these things and is willing and able to teach you. Good luck! And may the Force be with you... ROTFL!

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#406142 - 09/06/08 05:55 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Gavin]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Ah cool, another thread that has the opportunity for all our 'internal' experts to spill over their vast experience of Taiji, Aikido and the likes without ever having done it. And how they can link a naive, but innocent question from a teenager to attack something they've yet never done and don't understand. I got asked a question from a guy bashing Tai Chi the other day, "Yeah, but would I be allowed to wrestle? or would I just have to do Tai Chi?" which kinda gave me a very good inclination of his grasp pf the art he was slagging off. Made him amusing rather than annoying, kinda like the way I view Ed's pathetic dribble nowadays.




I don't know if you and Eyrie are referring to me here or what, I don't think I said anything out of line though, and frankly on a forum where no one meets in person everyone has nothing more than words to go by, so we could all be 'armchair internalists' or whatnot.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/06/08 05:59 PM)

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#406143 - 09/06/08 07:02 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Nah, I wasn't referring to you Zach... I was referring to myself...

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#406144 - 09/06/08 10:18 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
exactly. and it's the paradigms themselves which are being packaged and sold. With varying degrees of subtlty, the forum is just a big marketing test arena for them.
Some here resort to try and discredit opposing views in order to protect their investments. No real opinion is given by them, they only give vague open-ended quips to provide themselves wiggle-room if the thread turns into a debate. or the lazier and less-imaginative approach of insulting in the hopes of silencing it.

on topic - to the original poster:
The 'study' you reference, from Ohnishi.

don't believe everything you read, just because it has the word 'study'. The scoop on these authors are that they are in fact selling a product called "Nishino Breathing Method". books, DVD, seminars, etc. They make up studies and findings to support their own product's paradigm. they do it with a 'scientific study' format to try and give the illusion of credability. why? so people will buy into it.

for some reference:
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...ue#Post15982486


by definition, what these guys are producing are psudoscience. aka junk science in the name of marketing.

send the authors an e-mail yourself. you'll get a sales pitch for whatever Ki-master, Kozo Nishino is selling now.


people invested in this ki/chi paradigm will tend to insult and discredit instead of addressing the suggestion that the article you reference is a marketing ad in disguise....and certainly don't invest any hope of the moderators in this section to moderate anything other than the oppossing views.

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#406145 - 09/07/08 04:15 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:


I don't know if you and Eyrie are referring to me here or what, I don't think I said anything out of line though, and frankly on a forum where no one meets in person everyone has nothing more than words to go by, so we could all be 'armchair internalists' or whatnot.




Nope I was referring to you mate, and that's kind of the point that myself and Eyrie have been making for quite sometimes. Most people, like Ed, seem to be more inclined to stick their heads in the sand and talk out of their arse... You know the people who are obsessed by the subject but refuse to actually expeirence, just talk about it, pretty much like they do with most of the Martial Arts conversations they have. Kind of like teenage boys who spend all their time reading porn and talking about sex... They amuse me!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#406146 - 09/07/08 10:13 AM Re: Could use some help [Re: Gavin]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Not sure what you mean there, Gav. Ed has posted video and met people from the forum in person - something that others, like Eyrie, cannot say. Ed has also been training for quite a bit longer than many others here, including you and me.

You may not agree with him, but that doesn't mean his experience should be taken lightly. And didn't we all agree at one point that chi = body mechanics, anyway?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#406147 - 09/07/08 02:18 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
as I mentioned: "Some here resort to try and discredit opposing views in order to protect their investments. No real opinion is given by them, they only give vague open-ended quips to provide themselves wiggle-room if the thread turns into a debate. or the lazier and less-imaginative approach of insulting in the hopes of silencing it."

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#406148 - 09/07/08 02:52 PM Re: Could use some help [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
disagreement is fine if Gav knew how to disagree - apparently all he knows is how to insult. Gav is geering himself up to someday author/run and sell books/DVDs/seminars/wellness centers, so he has a lot to protect when it comes to silencing debates in this section.

he hasn't even stated his objection. what is he oppossing? does he think the study cited is valid or even plausable? is he giving advice to the original poster that his personal experiences are validated by the study? does he think the study follows acceptable scientific method? did he even read the study? etc...he's not debating anything, just insulting the people providing alternate explainations to the first poster's experiences. basically he's demonstrating that he opposses anyone that doesn't buy into the paradigm he's invested in - but then doesn't give a why he opposses it. thats not debate, thats dictatorship thru bullying. If that's where his internal art training has taken him, to low-functioning anger, then I fail to see he would be an example of it's advantage....or even a good example of a public forum moderator for that matter.


back on topic - a 17 year old came to the thread with a 'study' in hand. as Matt reminds from other debates, that it is pretty much agreed that chi/ki is a paradgm/training method of body dynamics. not as a physical internal force that only people with a high midichlorian count and proper jedi training can tap into.

which brings me to the earlier opinion, that there are no chi/ki-based trained people who can do anything that someone using a different method cannot do....except maybe sell more etherial-sounding material to the wishful thinking.

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