FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 44 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
LeroyCFischer, JadeKing, Beefcake, WesJones, simonajones111
22933 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 2
charlie 2
Matakiant 1
ergees 1
William_Bent 1
November
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
New Topics
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
MA style video library
by
03/22/06 03:18 PM
Recent Posts
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
MA style video library
by charlie
11/11/14 04:05 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/29/14 10:01 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
Forum Stats
22933 Members
36 Forums
35589 Topics
432521 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#406030 - 08/31/08 01:06 AM SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat
tsafa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/05
Posts: 144
While visiting Texas we tested SCA strikes on Tatami Mats. I thought the following video might be of interest to this group. After the initial results were obvious we decided to test lower quality swords and compare them to higher quality ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRcSr5iAOME&am...hread=6240


While there we also tested SCA fighting against Western Martial Arts using steel blunts. The scenario was blofsfechten (unarmored combat). There were no rules in this fight except don't actually kill the other person. Strikes to the hand, lower leg, grappling and punching were all allowed. The WMA combatant used a longsword using only techniques shown in historic fighting manuals and was a very knowledgeable, skilled and agile fighter.

We found that my lower leg was too hard for him to hit with out getting his head or hip chopped. My hand was too hard to target and it was difficult for him to close in for grappling without getting hit first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_5dPH8QNnM&am...amp;page=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg_qfbTKGZY&am...amp;page=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkSV8tAMEcY&am...amp;page=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF85xEocjE4&am...amp;page=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj7xzmOG56s&am...amp;page=1

Note: on the grappling video take a close look .45 seconds into the fight.

On my part I found that I was overly concerned with keeping my leg safe since I have not sparred too much with shields and the full body as a target. Legs are still at risk but not as much as I anticipated because his head or hip would come into my range before my leg came into his. Adam did get one good shot to my ankle so it is something to watch for. The next time I fight in this setup I would be more aggressive with this new experience knowing my leg is not at much as risk. I had no trouble transferring my cuts learned on rattan to cuts with an edged blunt.

There were no hits to my hand. We agreed that the swordhand moves too quickly in and out from the shield. Adam did get one nice shot to my right upper arm when he stepped to the side. I did get two good hits on Adams fingers which in a real fight would have made him drop his sword if not for gauntlets. In both those cases I was aiming for his body and when Adam moved his hands to block his fingers got hit. The majority to good shots that Adam landed on me were to my head just like in SCA fighting.

I should also add that I have a basic level understanding of longsword within the German system so I was familiar with my opponents longsword techniques. My opponent did not have much experience against SCA fighters. I have always been a proponent of learning as many different styles as possible for just such situations.

Many SCA fighters, including myself, study WMA. However, many in the WMA community consider SCA fighting as some sort of perversion of European Martial Arts and not functional in a setting without rules. This was the basis of the argument that lead to me being challenged to the duel. My opponent is from California and I am from NY. A third person offered to host the event in another corner of the of the country in Texas.

We started out the week by testing the various SCA strikes on tatami to establish their effectiveness. This lead to acknowledgment that they work and that they closely resemble some of the cuts used in the German tradition such as the Zwerchhue. In a contest without rules I then swapped out my rattan sword for a steel blunt and let my training stand on its own. The result was a meeting of the minds and the acknowledgment of those present that SCA fighting is a fully functional system in a setting without rules.

We parted as friends knowing that our fighting systems had more in common then not.
_________________________
An unused weapon is a useless weapon...

Top
#406031 - 09/04/08 02:19 PM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: tsafa]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Very interesting! I feel like I have to point out a couple of things for your own knowledge and practice. First, you were swinging MUCH harder when you had a sharp and the target in front of you than you were with just the pell. Second, those weren't standard tatami mats, but Bugei wara. There is a world of difference between them. For a side by side comparison, take a look at an article I wrote a number of years back ... http://www.ejmas.com/tin/tinart_smith_1103.html

Have to say though that it was a very interesting test, and I hope it lays to rest some of the animosity that most WMA aherents have for SCA combatants.
_________________________
Paul

Top
#406032 - 09/17/08 03:20 AM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: pgsmith]
tsafa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/05
Posts: 144
The strikes against the pell were done a little slower. They were more intended to show the mechanics of what I was doing. One of the problems I found with the tatami was that agaist a human target I would not cut through all the way. The blows would probably stop at the bone. Against, mail they might break bone, but again not cut through. With the tatami I found that when I cut through it felt to me like I just missed. It had the effect of pulling me out of guard. With more cutting practice I could probably adjust this. This was the first time cutting tatami with a single-handed sword.

That website you posted was very interesting.


Edited by tsafa (09/17/08 03:34 AM)
_________________________
An unused weapon is a useless weapon...

Top
#406033 - 09/17/08 10:45 AM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: tsafa]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
tsafa

Looks like you guys had some real fun!
And made some buds......sounds like a good time and time well spent to me.

Just a quick question---you say in your post that there were "no rules other than don't kill each other" but the intro to the first vid clip says "late medevial duleing rules"---I'm honestly not familier with late med dueling rules so am I safe in assuming that such "rules" are "no rules--other than don't kill each other?"

Not sure I'm getting that correctly.

I always question what such "tests" really prove in concrete fashion BUT it was interesting to watch and it sounds like it helped you guys learn some things.......and you made some buds...and you had a good time doing it.....what more could you ask.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#406034 - 09/19/08 03:27 AM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: cxt]
tsafa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/05
Posts: 144
Quote:

you say in your post that there were "no rules other than don't kill each other" but the intro to the first vid clip says "late medevial duleing rules"




The video was done by the person hosting this event. He was just being poetic. The terms were simply "no rules" (but don't actualy kill anyone).

I went to Texas with the intention of testing 4 things.

1 - Can the techniques learned with a rattan sword be transferred to a blunt? (one popular opinion was that every one of my attacks would land flat)

2- Would my sword-hand be hopelessly vulnerable in my attacks?

3-Would my lower-legs be hopelessly vulnerable in my defense?

4-Would my ability to defend and attack be completely hindered when grappling is allowed?

The conclusion drawn by everyon present is that SCA fighting is very viable fighting style in a pre- 15th century context. It becomes questionable post 15th century in the presence of full plate armor. However even post 15th century, not everyone on a battlefield was in full plate and most helmets were about 3 lbs. It only takes so many blows to a light helm to knock a man out. Battlefield armor is much lighter then jousting armor.


Edited by tsafa (09/19/08 03:31 AM)
_________________________
An unused weapon is a useless weapon...

Top
#406035 - 09/21/08 09:34 PM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: tsafa]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
Nice job Tsafa. You are one of many SCA fighters to find a WMA combatant “wanting” on the field.

Let the viewers of said context should Know that Tsafa is above the chafe of the average SCA fighter, but doesn’t possess the prowess of a White Belt ala a knight, let alone a Duke. I'm stating this to let the veiwers know the skill level of a knight and to show just how far the WMA has to go in order to be justified in their views of the SCA.

That said, I’m not taking away “by any means” the fine display of prowess, courage, valor, and fairness that Tsafa displayed. He’s not achieved belted status (at least I didn't see a white belt on him) but certainly is on the right path to such endeavor

I’ve never figured out the WMA aversion to the SCA …It as if they Hold the hole society with contempt…. The mechanics for swinging a sword in the SCA are the pretty much the same in the historical context. Unless a man’s anatomy has changed …last time I checked it hadn’t.

PS Tsafe You should have just gone into an "A" frame and climed up his center....when he attempted to thrust... you should have just swept his sword with the shield and then crushed him!

Be mean! do it with the pommel Just punch twords his face with the pommel of the sword, replace the sword hand with your shield and crushed again!

No single sword should ever give you cause!


Edited by GansuKid (09/21/08 09:37 PM)

Top
#406036 - 09/22/08 12:42 PM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: GansuKid]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:

I’ve never figured out the WMA aversion to the SCA …It as if they Hold the hole society with contempt…. The mechanics for swinging a sword in the SCA are the pretty much the same in the historical context. Unless a man’s anatomy has changed …last time I checked it hadn’t.



While I don't practice WMA, I think I can perhaps lend a little perspective from a Japanese sword arts view of things. First is the fact that the WMA guys are still trying to forge an identity. Much of what they are doing is very similar to what the SCA has been doing for quite some time, so they are eager to differentiate themselves. Second, the goals are very different. The SCA goals (as I understand them, not being involved in it) are historically plausible reenactment, fighting, and having a good time. The goal of the WMA is more aligned with the goal of the koryu Japanese sword arts. Primary is preservation of tradition and attempting to understand what was handed down. Oh, and having a good time. Fighting ability is rarely even considered as any sort of goal.

Don't get me wrong, we all practice as if our lives depended on it in order to try and stay true to the training. However, the goal is to internalize the training (which takes quite a long time when it's only a hobby) in order to try and understand what our ancestors were trying to teach about swordsmanship. Eventually, the end result should be the same, a good swordsman.

Different methods and different ideas leads to cliques, and a lot of people have trouble accepting that something different can be just as good or meaningful. I see a lot of that in both the WMA and JSA circles.
_________________________
Paul

Top
#406037 - 09/23/08 11:46 PM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: pgsmith]
tsafa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/05
Posts: 144
You both brought up some important points. I am not a knight in the SCA. I am a squire to a knight. I have never beat a knight in tournament. At best I might make 2 or 3 kills in 20 rounds against a knight in practice when they are trying out new stuff. Dukes will usually beat knights more then 75% of the time in tornament. They become Dukes by beating all other knights and becoming King for two reigns.

Not that SCA structure matters to people here but as GansuKid pointed out, it clarifies the scale of how good the best SCA fighters are. I have not beat a knight even once in tournament so far. They are very fast, accurate, agile and hit hard as hell.

As Pgsmith pointed out the focus of WMA is to learn techniques that are in historical manuals. The reason I do both WMA and SCA is because they are different in their focus. Since WMA is grounded in historic manuals I use that as a point of reference. There are those who have said that the SCA fighting would be useless outside of its ruleset and that I disagree with and I set out to prove wrong in a setting without rules.

One of the benefits of SCA fighting that is goes beyond just European fighting. There are plenty of guys that fight in the SCA that come from Japanese and Chinese sword arts. There are some guys that come from Philippino Stick Fighting. I know one guy that fights African spear and shield. People fight styles from all sorts of periods starting with Ancient Greek Hoplons and going right up to the 15th century poleaxes. Fighters come out with all sorts of polearms, shields, axes, maces swords, spears, etc... and they know how to use them. So to be a successful fighter in the SCA you have to be able to fight everyone regardless of their background, style, form, speed and agression.

Under no circumstances am I trying to take anything away from WMA. After all, I am part of that society too, I just wanted to prove that SCA fighting is a valid fighting art too.


Edited by tsafa (09/24/08 12:02 AM)
_________________________
An unused weapon is a useless weapon...

Top
#406038 - 09/25/08 02:49 PM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: tsafa]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
tsafa

Not to split hairs---but as far as I know nobody on the forum has suggested that SCA isn't a valid form of fighting.
Maybe they did, but I don't recall it.

Plus I can prove that at one time in the hands of "X" people a given art was hell on wheels in combat---that DON'T mean that just because I train in it "I'm" a hell on wheels as a fighter----this would be like me saying "Chuck Liddell is a really tough guy---I train just like Chuck, so "I'm" a really tough guy."

See the problem?

Anther problem is that people are not "really" using say "African spear fighting" at all---at best what they are doing is filtering African Spear Fighting thu the rules of an SCA meet and using what they can.....which could a little, could be a lot---but your really not getting a real picture of an art by looking at its sport application.

Take your aforementioed African Spear Fighting----are you guy matching on the African veldt with temps in the 100's--so wearing the full armor and merely walking would seriously weaken you and fighting full out quite possibly kill you in short order?
Is taking African Spear fighting and forceing its student whom presumably has been training with a very different set of combat varibles to don a heavy metal vest and heavy protective gear really giving you a real look at the "effectiveness" of their art?

I would suggest that its more complex than that.

I have a buddy that used to say that if you wanted to study a REAL fighting system of any kind the thing to do would be study the all the things they BANNED from their meets---people ban stuff because its dangrous and it gets people hurt---if they allow you to do it chances are that its allowed because it DOES NOT consiatntly get people hurt.

Sport applications can be good teaching aids....I just shy away from using them as a "standard" for judeging overt effectiness.

Another thing is how a given situation effects the training and the fighting---I used to fence saber---one day my teacher had us take off the mask, jacket, glove and gave us period repro's with rebatted edges and had us fence---NOW the slighest mistake could get somebody seriously hurt--just by ACCIDENT......it seriously changed not only the manner in which we fenced but the techniques and tactics we used......indeed the Olympaic manner in which we trained became a serious LIBABILTY rather than a help when the rules chamged to greater realism.

Just something to bear in mind.

I have no problems with SCA people BTW--many of them are indeed skillful fighters.


Edited by cxt (09/25/08 03:08 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#406039 - 09/28/08 02:28 AM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: cxt]
tsafa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/05
Posts: 144
Quote:

tsafa

Not to split hairs---but as far as I know nobody on the forum has suggested that SCA isn't a valid form of fighting.
Maybe they did, but I don't recall it.






No one has. I did not mean to imply anyone here had. The duel did come about based on someone challenging its validity as fighting art. So the context of the whole challenge and my reporting of the events were slanted in that direction of proving or disproving.
_________________________
An unused weapon is a useless weapon...

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Charles Mahan, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga