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#406040 - 10/05/08 10:30 AM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: tsafa]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
As Far as My posts goes.. I wasn’t suggesting that WMA was suspect either… My experience (and my experience ONLY) I have found that the WMA people or people who follow that vein…..that I have come across “who have aversions” to the SCA are either 1) Do not know much about the SCA and the high level of competition that exist or 2) Tried the SCA at some local back water level…thought it was a “beat down fest” and didn’t like what they experienced

I can under stand the beat down viewpoint (having witnessed it more than a few times)

My Hapkido training has kept me from becoming a knight (all my friends in the SCA are Knights or Dukes) When I’m up and fighting I fight at that level. So I know how good and demanding these guys are. There is a cost on the body when training in this sport (as is other very aggressive sports)

So when I come across a condescending WMA or escrima, or Kendoka on the internet…..I’m always aggressively defensive. Sometimes to the point of issuing “a put up or shut up challenged” Is this wrong? Yea… I’m not perfect

Tsafa where do you hail from?

I’m from the Midrealm, Know anyone from there?

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#406041 - 10/11/08 02:29 AM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: GansuKid]
tsafa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/05
Posts: 144
Quote:

As Far as My posts goes.. I wasn’t suggesting that WMA was suspect either… My experience (and my experience ONLY) I have found that the WMA people or people who follow that vein…..that I have come across “who have aversions” to the SCA are either 1) Do not know much about the SCA and the high level of competition that exist or 2) Tried the SCA at some local back water level…thought it was a “beat down fest” and didn’t like what they experienced

I can under stand the beat down viewpoint (having witnessed it more than a few times)





You are 100% correct. When I have pressed WMA guys why they hate SCA so much I have found they have tried it and experience very poor practices full of newbies or they had a beat down experience when they tried it. In my area we go very easy on Newbies. We are very conscience of some of the bad karma created in the past. There is also another segment that just dislikes that not everyone what to do what they want to do.

Quote:


My Hapkido training has kept me from becoming a knight (all my friends in the SCA are Knights or Dukes) When I’m up and fighting I fight at that level. So I know how good and demanding these guys are. There is a cost on the body when training in this sport (as is other very aggressive sports)





I very much agree. SCA rattan is a very tough on the body. Not only in getting hit but in just constantly striking at full speed and power. It wears the joints and tendons.

Quote:


So when I come across a condescending WMA or escrima, or Kendoka on the internet…..I’m always aggressively defensive. Sometimes to the point of issuing “a put up or shut up challenged” Is this wrong? Yea… I’m not perfect





We are of the same mind. I respect every one's marital art, but when people start talking down SCA they had better be prepared to prove what they are saying. No one gets hurt, I have an extra set of armor for anyone interested in teaching me a lesson. All safe and in good sprite.

Quote:


Tsafa where do you hail from?





Ostgardr, East Kingdom (NYC). I had the honer of meeting you Mid-Relm'ers on the field of honer at Pennsic again this past summer. You fought well and earned victory and honer.I made some friends from Mid-Relm but I don't remember their names and will not see them until next year.


Edited by tsafa (10/11/08 02:37 AM)
_________________________
An unused weapon is a useless weapon...

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#406042 - 10/13/08 04:04 PM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: tsafa]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
tsafa

Not to beat a dead horse....but you keep saying stuff like:

"When people start talking down SCA they had better be prepared to prove what they are saying.......I have an extra set of armor for anyone interesting in teaching me a lesson."

2 things jump out:

1-Again, as far as know nobody around here---and nobody on this thread has been bagging on SCA---yet you keep acting in what I read as avery belligerent manner---nobody is doing anything like what your suggesting but your still talking tough and dropping what people may well be reading as arrogent and challanging statements.

As near as I can tell the only one talking what could be seen as smack around here is YOU.
Its possible that if you carry this attitude around elsewhere your attitide is why people have been speaking smack towards you and SCA.

Reads to me like your rying to start an e-fight.

Just something to consider----no offense meant or implied.

2-Again with the armor reference----like I said before, one of the thngs I find personally annoying with the sport approach to sword/weapon work is that the armor changes pretty EVERYTHING----I have sparred with and without the armor and I can tell you for certain that once th efear of serious injury is off the table---the sparrign is vastly different......so challanging people "I have an extra set of armor" to me proves next to nothing about the validity of a persons practice and art.

If you said something like to me I might well say --"sure, you try and get your armor on while I start cutting at you with this waster---lets see if you can get it on before I knock you out."

Many koryu folks are trained ot hit where the armor DOES NOT protect you--on PURPOSE---so it would be kinda hard to match fairly without people getting hurt.

My advice to you is to please knock off the belligerent attitude---if someone is talking smack on SCA----please knock their block off--and I'll gladly help you do it
But unless and until then give us a break huh?
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#406043 - 10/13/08 06:43 PM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: cxt]
tsafa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/05
Posts: 144
cxt I was responding directly to Gansukid and his experience. Sorry if it came off wrong.

Regarding the armor, we assume mail or light armor regardless of what a person is actually wearing, not full plate. The armor is for our personal protection so we don't actually get hurt. Some people do choose to wear the minimum protection and leave a lot of skin exposed so they can move faster. People in the SCA do aim for unarmored areas specificaly because they don't have to hit as hard and the other person will take it. That said, the knees, elbows, throat, groin, and head must be protected because those can be crippling or deadly injuries given the way we hit. People actually getting crippled or killed in practice would decrease participation in any modern fighting art.

Coincidentally it is also in line with the historic chivalric code of allowing another knight to put on his armor before fighting him. Historically knights usually did not fight to the death. A principle source of income for knights was ransom and a dead man is worth nothing.


Edited by tsafa (10/13/08 06:49 PM)

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#406044 - 11/16/08 09:47 AM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: cxt]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36


Sorry just coming to check this thread now…

Concerning all things on the Internet ….. I understand Tsafa’s for I have experienced being shagged myself. Although, no one here as slighted our prowess… many do… Usually with the ignorance that we will gladly “exchange a dialogue”…(ask to exchange blows…and even travel to do so….)

Once the offender realizes this….. We usually experience a “back peddling” and perceived “loss of face” and usually the moderator of the “particular site” comes to the rescue of the guy who has called into question “our honor and prowess” I think its this way because to the populas at large we are seen as Dungeon and Dragon’s roll playing nut jobs…

The thing to remember is that We (Belted fighter and unbelted fighter…) in the SCA are an honor bound society and we follow chivalric codes…(try to think of us as a giant biker gang with our own customs an societal rules) If we perceive our honor to be slighted, then the preverbal gauntlet naturally get thrown to the floor… (It’s a gut reaction sometimes…and to the uninitiated, it seems brash and full of braggadocio!

We in the SCA can get pretty nasty …. I have fought for the Midrealm on numerous occasion in “Champions battles” they are like football with sticks with no time outs. You smash the guy to the ground with your weapon and you smach him to the ground with your body! We in the Midrealm..even fight “pas de arms” on occasion too. (Basically its Submission fighting with sticks while in Armour )

I know …My brothers in the east are just as tenacious as we are.

That all said…Time and time again we get Escrima/ Philippine, Kendoka, Fencer and Western Sword Artist attempt to slag us on the Internet. It’s usually people who have NO CLUE what we do and that the fighting aspect of the SCA has been around for thirty plus years with many experts in other martial arts contributing. The competition is at a national level. (In other words, unlike most Dojo’s who just train amongst themselves…we continuously fight and train with a mass amount of people located all around the United States and Europe.) The skill level is very high…The only organizations that I have seen with the skill level that we have, are Fencing and Kendo organization the compete on a national level too… I have never seen a small school with a single instructor come close to producing skilled fighter of our nature.

The offenders are usually ignorant that we FIGHT most of the time every week on several occasions… In a full contact nature unscripted….we don’t play with kata….


CXT No offense….

But your statement can be seen as blusterous also….. When statement like this are made “Many koryu folks are trained ot hit where the armor DOES NOT protect you--on PURPOSE---so it would be kinda hard to match fairly without people getting hurt. “

This makes me and others of my craft think….. “ That you guys don’t do a lot of sparring…” because in a skilled contest where it becomes a chess game of the mind, you don’t get to pick where you get to strike. Your opponent gives you the target through your fakes, beats feints and manipulation in timing etc etc…

Now maybe you do fight a lot…. Who knows… this isn’t meant as a slag. It is meant as an informant for “…if you understand and comprehend what I said about picking your strikes, then you should at the very least….. know the depth at which our skill is….”

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#406045 - 11/17/08 04:36 PM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: GansuKid]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:


Lots of breast beating ...



You've just wonderfully illustrated why a lot of SCA combatants get ignored, and why the SCA in general tends to get passed off as a lot of old kids playing Dungeons and Dragons.

The aim of koryu folks is a lot different than that of SCA, kendo, or fencing. The vast majority do NO sparring at all, and we aren't interested in being, or being seen as, fighters.

This was a very interesting discussion that included members of the SCA, WMA, and JSA. No one was slagged on, but differences in outlook were discussed. Now you've gone and brought the thread back up, given it a large dose of testosterone, and basically told everyone else how you guys are better and you'll be happy to back it up.

With your obvious experience in the SCA, you could have made a positive contribution to helping others understand what you do. Instead, with a single post, you caused everyone outside the SCA to want to roll their eyes and blow you off.

Just the way I see it.
_________________________
Paul

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#406046 - 11/17/08 08:39 PM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: pgsmith]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
Quote:

Quote:


Lots of breast beating ...



You've just wonderfully illustrated why a lot of SCA combatants get ignored, and why the SCA in general tends to get passed off as a lot of old kids playing Dungeons and Dragons.

The aim of koryu folks is a lot different than that of SCA, kendo, or fencing. The vast majority do NO sparring at all, and we aren't interested in being, or being seen as, fighters.

This was a very interesting discussion that included members of the SCA, WMA, and JSA. No one was slagged on, but differences in outlook were discussed. Now you've gone and brought the thread back up, given it a large dose of testosterone, and basically told everyone else how you guys are better and you'll be happy to back it up.

With your obvious experience in the SCA, you could have made a positive contribution to helping others understand what you do. Instead, with a single post, you caused everyone outside the SCA to want to roll their eyes and blow you off.

Just the way I see it.




Well I’m sorry you took it that way…. In my defense, I looked at the statement “Many koryu folks are trained to hit where the armor DOES NOT protect you--on PURPOSE---so it would be kinda hard to match fairly without people getting hurt.”

As saying … A) You SCA guys don’t train in reality and B) ”Your not that “all knowing” about the blade…so quit with the bluster…..

20 years of fighting with a blade gave me the impression that CXT’s retort was full of bluster too.. (not that I’m saying Tsafa post was) I just found it strange considering that it was coming from a gentleman that was saying Tsafa was being pugnacious? Go figure...


As it stands, it also appears I did in fact interpreted correctly that Koryu folks DO NOT SPARR FULL CONTACT”

Now the question begs to be asked…. NO disrespect but “Isn’t that like saying you box but in reality only shadow box in front of a mirror? And doesn’t your response to my post seems a little high brow coming from a base that doesn’t involve real competition. You are aware we basically box with sticks or rebatted steal.

Yet… you used the Dungeon and dragon label! I ask who is role playing ?


Isn’t this a prime example of what I just elaborated on in my last post ….I.e. "The fact that on the Internet, people that have little or no real knowledge of actual fighting with a blade outside studying Kata with the small group they train with have NO REAL knowledge of what we the SCA do, or the level of prowess that exsists in the SCA …

Your skill at a blade can and does translate into
our art…why not come and compete?

Why the hostility? If your prowess is as good as you suggest, then come out and fight and compete! Until then your opinions don’t really matter, do they? Or did you forget, or think I was kidding about about being a honor and prowess based society... Please come on out (if your in the Mid west) let me know where we can meet.... Show me what you got! I will be most respectfull and honorable...But not to humble if you don't know your stuff. We in the SCA love competition please get involved.... I would love to have a discussion...or two or three etc etc....

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#406047 - 11/18/08 11:58 AM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: GansuKid]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:

Why the hostility?



No hostility, I was simply pointing out that you were, and are now, jumping up and down like a little kid saying "we are too better, come on, I'll prove it!!!" I personally find it pretty amusing.
Quote:

If your prowess is as good as you suggest, then come out and fight and compete!



I never suggested that my "prowess" was any good. I have only ever fought when I was forced to, and then people have a very good chance of dying. I don't fight to compete thanks. I told you that koryu folks have other aims. Apparently you were too busy telling everyone how good you really are to catch that.
Quote:

Until then your opinions don’t really matter, do they?



My opinions shouldn't matter to you no matter what. I am not in your group, I am not your instructor, I am only a name on the internet. It's a bit of a curiosity to me why my opinions should matter in the least, never mind upset you so much.
_________________________
Paul

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#406048 - 11/18/08 12:12 PM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: GansuKid]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Gansu

The problem here is that you didn't actually read the back and forth and just picked a line out of context to object to.......I said nothing even remotely what you think I did.....the CONTEXT was much different than the snippet you found so objectionable.

And BTW, you were reading a ANSWER to somebody else---so your a couple of itterations out of the loop.

So again, your context is off.

And had you taken the time to actually read the discussion you would find that was very much AGAINST people bashing SCA in any fashion....and very SUPPORTIVE of those defending it......but again, you would have had to actually read the discussion to find that out.

The ONLY "hostility" here is YOURS.

"why not come and compete"

We were talking about matching and armor---my point was that people training in very different "rules" if you will, are going to find it VERY hard to match fairly.......if you want to "compete" under what rules do you plan to use?

Yours?

Well lets see I spend 1000's of hours training to do stuff your rules might not let me do---so I have start pulling/changing my techniques to suit YOU...and you think that is fair?

Or mine---now YOUR the guy that probably has to change his practice to conform to my rules.

Either way---not what I would call "fair" match.

As PGSmith pointed out above most koryu folks simply are not into the competitve thing---for all sorts of reasons.

You also provided and excellent example of what I was trying to explain to the first poster---why SCA gets bashed some times......because some SCA'ers are quite belligerent and seemingly go around LOOKING for stuff to object to---even if they have to essentially INVENT a problem by ignoreing the context of a discussion to do it....and that, IMO, reflects poorly on SCA in general.

Hopefully he can see what I was getting at in your post/s.

BTW, Just so you know, most koryu folks DON'T sit around talking about what we see as the relative shortcomings of other methods---were to busy training.



Edited by cxt (11/18/08 12:33 PM)

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#406049 - 11/18/08 06:05 PM Re: SCA Strikes/Tatami Mats/Unrestricted Combat [Re: cxt]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
I think there is a failure to understand or comprehend our customs and societal norms that get people into trouble with us…or is seen as belligerent. The SCA heavy weapons culture is one based on honor, prowess and “ chivalric codes” If….. people talk the talk, then its expected in the SCA that one can walk the walk or will be able to prove it.

In fact tonight is Tuesday and I’ll be going to practice in which I’ll go dish out some pain and get some in return… at least twice a week others and I do this. Understand twice a week I get my bell rung! Much more as war nears…it’s a counter culture in its truest form… It’s a medieval fight club.

Again, our norms are based off of prowess, its not who has been at the dojo the longest but who can put the smack down on who. The best of us are Dukes and Knights. We love challenges and fighting.

Once again our love of a good fight “especially with people whom consider us inept when it comes to blade fighting.” Is seen as belligerent to the unitiated....

Is this really belligerent? NOT SO! Remember ours is a society based of prowess with the clear understanding if one has objections to technique, tactics or strategy one is called on to demonstrate the measure of their words.


CXT …sword fighting is sword fighting…I have sparred Kendoka, Escrima practitioners and college fencers…all could compete. And I’ll be honest with you from what I’ve seen on the internet when it comes to eastern sword arts (other than national organizations of kendoka and fencers) IMO….. a LARP enthusiast has better skill with a blade…

No competition equals no skill! The MMA guys have been saying that to the world of traditionalist for years now. We (the heavy SCA fighters) have heard all the arguments yet no one enters our lists to show us the way.

CXT….You sound to smart to float “my art is too dangerous that its not able to adapt to sport” Why not come sparr with us…the use of force factor is so high because of our amour, it would allow you to crank it up!

And I’ll love to shoot holes in the “The SCA doesn’t allow for grappling” cause we do and will……. Its not preferred BECAUSE WE ARE FIGHTING WITH WEAPONS and hence PREFER TO TRAIN the USE of “SAID WEAPON” to FIGHT!

CXT and pgsmith you both could and should come out. For once you walk within our walls you will see us in a different light.

People who don’t walk within our walls most assuredly get weighed, measured and found wanting…. I’ve never seen the opposite….


Edited by GansuKid (11/18/08 06:09 PM)

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