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#405981 - 08/30/08 02:51 AM Tight fist = tense arm?
VietPanda Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 103
Does anyone else find that tightening the fist too much makes the arms tense and thus produce a weaker punch?
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#405982 - 08/30/08 08:20 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: VietPanda]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I believe its because antagonist muscles engage, making it sort of like driving a car with the parking brake on.

Its pretty obvious that if you're too tense and stiff, you're going to move slower. Staying relaxed is key. Tense up, tightening the fist only at the end of your punch.

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#405983 - 08/30/08 09:13 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: JKogas]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I can tense my fist and have a fully loose wrist/relaxed arm.

It's about learning what muscles to tense and what muscles NOT to tense.

So the answer is no - tightening your fist does NOT have to tense your whole arm. Learning this is part and parcel of learning our basic techniques.

(I can video this for you if you want Vietpanda.)
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#405984 - 08/30/08 11:09 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: VietPanda]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
The muscles involved in making a tight fist are found in the forearm. The beauty of this is that you can make a tight fist and have a completely relaxed elbow and shoulder which allows for a fast punch.
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#405985 - 08/30/08 07:48 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Saisho]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Most people tense every muscle in the forearm, where you don't have to in order to have a sufficiently tight fist.

Hence I can do an uraken (back fist) with a loose wrist but a tight fist. As I said, this is a basic.
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#405986 - 08/31/08 07:09 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: VietPanda]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Try keeping the pinky and ring finger tight and the other two fingers closed but relaxed. Tense the relaxed fingers just prior to contact. The same grip will come in handy when you do tonfa- to control tonfa in the spins using the grip on the handle and because it allows wrist movement for the spins. WHen you tighten up the first two fingers you can't roll the wrist.As already stated you can learn to relax the muslces that need to be relaxed.
The PP people will also tell you this grip helps strenghten against strikes to one of the meridians (heart?).

This is an ancient Okinawan secret so don't tell anyone.
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Duane

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#405987 - 08/31/08 07:17 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: duanew]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Sorry. There are no tricks. You can keep the whole fist tight enough without having a stiff wrist. It's not that hard - come on, it's a basic technique for crying out loud!
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#405988 - 08/31/08 11:23 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Actually, you can not have a completely tight fist while having a relaxed wrist. It is anatomically impossible. It has to do with the fact that the finger flexors and extensors share a common origin with the wrist flexors and extensors. If the fingers are tight, the tendons cross the wrist and it is tight. That is why a person can not grip well when they have "tennis elbow".

The concept of the ureken and why you can have a tight fist at impact with bending wrist is due to tendon insufficiency. The tendons of the fingers are not long enough to allow both wrist flexion and finger flexion (or extension of both). If a person flexes the wrist, they can not make a fist (that is why wrist locks are good for disarming knives). However, when the wrst bends back into an ureken, the fingers "want" to bend and make a fist. It does not take a lot of extra effort to tighten them into a strong fist.
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#405989 - 08/31/08 07:11 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Saisho]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
That is why I said "tight enough".

We're talking the right tension for a punch that does not cause your forearm to be so stiff as to preclude uraken.

It's a question of tightening the right muscles, not ALL the muscles in your forearm.

This is all a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.
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#405990 - 08/31/08 08:20 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Quote:

That is why I said "tight enough".

We're talking the right tension for a punch that does not cause your forearm to be so stiff as to preclude uraken.

It's a question of tightening the right muscles, not ALL the muscles in your forearm.

This is all a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.




IF you try what I described you will find those are the "right muscles". A non -issue-yet you continue to post?
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Duane

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#405991 - 08/31/08 10:35 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: duanew]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
No - I don't tighten just the the pinky and ring finger.

It is a non-issue, yet I am amazed how many people make an "issue" out of fist tightening. I've seen many "recipes" including the ubiquitious "tighten just before hitting" etc.

Sorry, but I can't see why you don't just keep a fist that is tight enough to punch, yet keeps your wrist loose for a whip-like uraken.

As I said, this isn't theory. I've been doing it for 28 years and it's the first thing I show beginners.
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#405992 - 09/01/08 05:37 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Quote:

No - I don't tighten just the the pinky and ring finger.

Me neither, prior to impact I tighten the hold hand.

It is a non-issue, yet I am amazed how many people make an "issue" out of fist tightening. I've seen many "recipes" including the ubiquitious "tighten just before hitting" etc.

Ubiquitious-appearing to be everywhere at once. If it is everywhere perhaps the advice has some merit.

Sorry, but I can't see why you don't just keep a fist that is tight enough to punch, yet keeps your wrist loose for a whip-like uraken.

You have to change the tension in the muscles to go from a punch to a backfist-particularily if you backfist with the wrist bent to strike only with the knuckles.

As I said, this isn't theory. I've been doing it for 28 years and it's the first thing I show beginners.




It takes years of practice to eliminate all the wasted tension in your techniques-resulting in minimal effort and maximum effect. I was passing on advise that I have received over the years from my instructors. Free advise is usually worth what you pay for it. However, if you are a beginning student it might be a good starting point depending on if you think an Okinawan karate instructor might know what he is talking about (he has more than 28 years of teaching experience)
There is more than one path up the mountain.
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Duane

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#405993 - 09/01/08 05:40 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Always remain relaxed, always, until impact. If you are loose your reaction time is going to be greater.
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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#405994 - 09/01/08 07:28 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Chen Zen]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Sorry Duane - as it happens you've stumbled upon one of my "pet hates". I just see recipies for tightening as unnecessary. It is part of my (highly personal and controversial) view.

I don't mean to come across so strongly. In the end, there is more than one path up that mountain!
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#405995 - 09/02/08 07:07 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
My point exactly. Telling a beginner to only tighten the muscles that need to be tight and loosen those that need to be loose-while exactly what they need to do-probably won't attain their and our desired result.
Meet you at the mountain top.
_________________________
Duane

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#405996 - 09/03/08 08:46 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: duanew]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
This a video Bossman from the forum done on the first and punching. It might be relevant here:

http://www.woma.tv/woma/channels/159/movies/29.html
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www.SHIKON.COM
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#405997 - 09/03/08 09:28 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: duanew]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I might make the point Duane that I show beginners how to make a fist at the very first lesson and they usually don't take long to get it. After a few months they more or less have the "tight fist, loose wrist" combination. Of course it takes years to "perfect" but I certainly don't leave them to pursue a goal without guidance.

Suffice it to say that I have always been surprised by debates about tensing the fist and how it slows you down. As a karateka and internal artist I've never experienced this. It is a question of technique that I can easily demonstrate in person. If I get around to it I'll do a video (which is easy with today's technology and my predilection for making them - I'm a late but enthusiastic convert to video editing and computers generally!).

I haven't watched the video posted above, but I will do so now.
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#405998 - 09/03/08 09:58 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
TheCrab Offline
Scum
Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
Fists Clenched. theres a lot of reasons for this.

A) your in a fight, you try to do your "tense before impact" thing, oops you were a millisecond too late, have fun with a broken wrist.

B) Theres other things to focus on than your fists. You dont need anything extra on your mind in a confrontation

with the muscle contradiction thing, tensing your fist has no effect on how fast you can move your arm about. The forearm muscles for the most part just tense the fist, and one of them basiclly assists your bicep. That muscle isnt used for your grip, so therefore wont pull your arm towards your bicep while your triceps try to extend it.

Its dumb to keep your hands loose, if you cop a punch and your fingers arent tight your screwed.

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#405999 - 09/03/08 10:16 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: TheCrab]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Hmm. Mr Crab I do believe we are in complete agreement for the first (hopefully not the last) time!
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http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#406000 - 09/05/08 04:58 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
YOU CAN'T DO IT DAN!!! YOU CAN'T TIGHTEN YOUR FIST AND NOT YOUR WHOLE FOREARM!!! NU UH!!

Silly, the things we get worked up over,lol.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#406001 - 09/05/08 05:43 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: BrianS]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
YES - YOU CAN! (If you're using the sine wave, "Chi-ball orchestration TM" and unless you're doing American goju)
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http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#406002 - 09/05/08 06:04 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Another thing that really works me up is people who put the toilet roll onto the holder the WRONG WAY!
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http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#406003 - 09/05/08 07:40 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
TheCrab Offline
Scum
Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
My mates replaced mine with sandpaper the other day

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#406004 - 09/05/08 08:00 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Mark_Jakabcsin Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 75
Loc: Fort Mill, South Carolina
The amount of tension needed in the fist is actually quite small, most folks over tighten which causes tension in the arm, shoulder and even the upper back/chest. Gently pressing the tips of your fingers into the palm of your hand is generally enough. Think of holding a fly in your fist. The fly is held firmly in one place but it cannot move around.

The whole tension on impact thing is generally over done and misunderstood, imo. The increase in tension needed is minmal to have a large affect. However, if one over tenses the affect actually becomes a negative. Think of the fly in the fist. Upon impact (or better yet a tiny fraction after impact) simply squeeze enough to barely kill the fly. This increase in tension, when done properly, causes a tension reflex in the person being struck which makes the strike much deeper and more devastating. Of course this is all about delivering strikes inside the body, not the normal external strikes commonly practiced and taught.

Alightment of the fist/wrist/forearm is of utmost importantance. Get in a push-up position with a fist and hang out for awhile, 10-15 minutes. If you are doing it properly and resting on your skeleton this is no big deal. If you are using your muscles it will become difficult relatively quickly, but hang in there as the muscles wear out your body will start looking for other ways to support itself. Note the position of the wrist, if it is aligned properly the tendons have slight tension to hold the wrist in place but they do not support the load. Also note the comfort/discomfort of the fist. If you are squeezing the fist too tightly it will become painful quickly and turn white with restricted blood flow. When you are using the proper amount of tension your fist should be reasonably comfortable and when completing the drill your fingers/hand should not be overly stiff as blood has been flowing the entire time.

One other thing to study while in this position is to learn why the incorrect wrist position is bad. By really feeling this, one begins to learn what not to do and why on a deeper level. When in the leaning rest push your wrist out slightly so they are not in alignment with your fist/forearm. Note how very weak this position is an how bad your wrist feels. Now adjust so the wrists are inside and feel the same. When we strike with a bent wrist we have a similar result and much of the force of the strike goes into our own wrist intead of the target. Ouch!

Take care,

Mark J.
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Take care,

Mark J.

www.charlotte-systema.com

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#406005 - 09/06/08 05:03 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Mark_Jakabcsin]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Indeed. A friend calls the fist tightening "curling" to distinguish it from over-tension.

I make my fist as tight as possible WITHOUT tensing the wrist. This equates to a little more tension than "holding a fly" but it is definitely not the tension some people refer to that impedes/slows movement.

Insufficiently "curled" or "tightened" fists can lead to serious knuckle injuries. Overtightening is daft.
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#406006 - 09/06/08 08:18 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
I am trying to stay out of the personal argument that a few people seem to have going on (maybe they don't and I am seeing it wrong). However, I would like to dispute the concept of "overtightening" which "slows down the arm."

This is completely false and has no justification of any kind. I don't care how tight you make your fist, you will not slow down your technique.

As mentioned, the muscles that tighten the fist are in the forearm and only affect the wrist and fist. The power and speed of the technique should not be coming from the elbow, let alone from the forearm and wrist.

The body generates the power and if the elbows and above are relaxed, the speed and power will not (can not) be decreased. The only thing that could decrease them would be additional mass in the hands, which a tight fist can not cause.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#406007 - 09/06/08 09:40 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Saisho]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Hi Tony

No I don't think there is an argument. I came on a bit strong with my view to Duane - but it wasn't really intended to sound like that.

I agree with your position; forearm tension shouldn't affect the speed of the body generally. However in my experience people who overtighten their muscles in their forearm also tighten up other muscles in the body!

Otherwise I agree with you - and I suppose this underlies my "strong" feelings about this; I can't see why it is even debated - teachers should pick this up very early as a fundamental error and work on "relaxing" their students. But seeing as it crops up regularly in debate among martial artists I tend to feel a bit exasperated!
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#406008 - 09/06/08 12:24 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Mark_Jakabcsin Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 75
Loc: Fort Mill, South Carolina

Tension is like napalm, it spreads.

Following are some tests that very few people can do well, perhaps you fall into the 1/2 percent category and can do them all, great for you but for most it is not so easy.

- Very slowly tighten the muscles in your forearm being hyper aware of the rest of you body. Specifically the deltoids and triceps in that arm. If you feel them move even the slightest amount that is tension. Heck it is good to roll up your sleeve and have some one watch as most people have little awareness of their own bodies. Slowly increase the tension until there is movement/tension elsewhere.

- Slowly increase the tension in a fist. Feel how the tendons run through the forearm all the way to the elbow. As you increase the tension in the fist these end points of the tendons in the elbow are affected, hence the elbow itself.

- Have a partner pick up your arm and move it about. Totally give your partner your arm so there is no tension in it. Let him feel how soft and fluid it is........or how difficult it is to be relaxed and fluid. At some point make a fist with different degrees of tension. Your partner should be telling you any differences he feels as soon as he feels them. You can also notice any dffierences in your own arm and how the tighter the fist the more difficult it is to give up the rest of your arm.

Tension spreads and the more intesnse the situation the faster it spreads.

Tension also affects the heaviness of ones hands/fists which ultimately determines if one can strike inside the body or is limited to surface strikes.

Take care,

Mark J.
_________________________
Take care,

Mark J.

www.charlotte-systema.com

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#406009 - 09/06/08 02:10 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Mark_Jakabcsin]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
I do have the ability to relax my muscles at will. That is often why I was used as the "patient" for scenerios in Physical Therapy school.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#406010 - 09/08/08 04:45 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Another thing that really works me up is people who put the toilet roll onto the holder the WRONG WAY!




Oh no you didn't!!!

_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#406011 - 09/13/08 07:10 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Saisho]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

I am trying to stay out of the personal argument that a few people seem to have going on (maybe they don't and I am seeing it wrong). However, I would like to dispute the concept of "overtightening" which "slows down the arm."

This is completely false and has no justification of any kind. I don't care how tight you make your fist, you will not slow down your technique.

As mentioned, the muscles that tighten the fist are in the forearm and only affect the wrist and fist. The power and speed of the technique should not be coming from the elbow, let alone from the forearm and wrist.





This is incorrect, there are muscles "in the forearm" that have an effect on flexion, extension, abduction, adduction of the wrist, flexion and extension of the digits, and and flexion of the elbow further, many flexor and extensor muscles originate from the epicondyles of the humerus (i.e. the "upper arm") or thereabouts, so saying that what happens in your forearm is disconnected from everything else simply doesn't make sense.


It's debatable I agree how much affect is there, but this idea that all the muscles in your lower arm are disconnected from the upper is dead wrong as far as I know.

If you want the names of the muscles I can break out my stuff and list em' off.

Here's an example muscle:

Palmaris longus:

Originates from the common flexor tendon from medial epicondyle of humerus

inserts on flexor retinaculum and palmar aponeurosis

actions are tense palmar fascia, flex the wrist, flex the elbow

Maybe i'm missing something but as far as my kinesiology training goes the claim that forearm muscles are standalone is a mistaken one. However, i'm going to ask my teacher and get a definitive answer.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/13/08 07:15 PM)

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#406012 - 09/13/08 08:38 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
OK, thought about it some more...if by muscles which tighten the fist you are meaning only the muscles which flex the digits then I think that's disputable because you are not counting muscles which do adduction, abduction, flexion and extension of the wrist, and supination/pronation fo the forearm which should count in making a fist that's gonna receive impact as far as I can tell.

Also the forearm flexor muscles I am aware of (we don't cover every single muscle in detail) still originate largely from the medial epicondyle of the humerus (including one flexor digitorum muscle that i'm aware of), if the muscle is contracted and it crosses the joint, I don't understand how it could not affect the movement of upper arm as well.

I'm willing to listen to any alternative viewpoint but so far this ain't makin' sense.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/13/08 08:44 PM)

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#406013 - 09/15/08 11:35 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
TheCrab Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
I cant believe this is even a discussion. Even if somehow making a reasonable fist slows you down, you have to do it anyway lol

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#406014 - 09/15/08 01:55 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: TheCrab]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

I cant believe this is even a discussion. Even if somehow making a reasonable fist slows you down, you have to do it anyway lol




And I can't believe you bothered posting in the thread just to say that...

Talk about missing the point, how about just not posting next time you feel like that?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/15/08 01:56 PM)

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#406015 - 09/15/08 08:06 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
TheCrab Offline
Scum
Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
Quote:

Talk about missing the point, how about just not posting next time you feel like that?



I just made a point.

fatty

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#406016 - 09/15/08 08:49 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: TheCrab]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

Talk about missing the point, how about just not posting next time you feel like that?



I just made a point.

fatty




Thanks man, needed to be reminded about that ignore button

P.S.: Usually making a point requires something more than "hahaha d00d u r dum" which appears to be where you're at most of the time.

Ahem

Still waiting for someone with some kinesiology background to go into this a little further with me.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/15/08 08:57 PM)

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#406017 - 09/17/08 09:07 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Zach,

In part you are right, but lets not try to throw around a bunch of "knowledge" that you can go look up when there are us in this forum that do this for a living and don't have to look it up.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#406018 - 09/17/08 09:10 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Saisho]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Zach,

In part you are right, but lets not try to throw around a bunch of "knowledge" that you can go look up when there are us in this forum that do this for a living and don't have to look it up.




I'm in school using and obtaining this knowledge, while I certainly did look it up, I work on some of these and other muscles every day, I assure you that beyond just looking it up I actually have learned a bit about muscles and do have some real life exposure.

So if it rubs ya the wrong way, explain where i'm wrong. I'm happy to accept an alternate explanation.

So let me boil it down: since flexors and extensors involved in making and using a fist originate in a large part from the medial and lateral epicondyles of the humerus (crossing the elbow joint), how could contraction of them not affect the upper arm and movement of the elbow?

I was just looking for a conversation about it, and I'd think that as a phys. therapist you'd actually be able to explain it or something, instead of getting mad because I looked something up in my kinesiology texts.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/17/08 09:27 PM)

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#406019 - 09/17/08 11:51 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Yes, extensors originate on the lateral epicondyle, hence lateral epicondylitis, or "tennis elbow" from repetitive use. The medial side is, for the most part, the origin of the flexors.

Where the error, as I see it, in the logic comes is in the role these muscles play in the workings of the elbow joint. It is true that any muscle that crosses a joint has an effect on the joint movement. However, the common flexors and extensors play only a minor role in elbow movement. In fact, when the fist is tight and the elbow bends, the common flexors and extensors get a little lax.

I am not angry about anyone looking information up. As a Physical Therapist, I do have to explain these things. As a college instructor of Anatomy, Physiology and Biomechanics, I have to teach it more. However, I think it is better to keep the explanations simple for those without an anatomical background and I think it can be done without trying to make people seem less educated.

Good luck with school.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#406020 - 09/18/08 03:50 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Saisho]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Where the error, as I see it, in the logic comes is in the role these muscles play in the workings of the elbow joint. It is true that any muscle that crosses a joint has an effect on the joint movement. However, the common flexors and extensors play only a minor role in elbow movement. In fact, when the fist is tight and the elbow bends,the common flexors and extensors get a little lax.




Wouldn't he boldened portion differ a bit depending on supination/pronation of the forearm and extension/flexion of the wrist though? In most puching these come into play as well don't they?

Hmmm...I figured they didn't play the same major role as biceps or brachialis, but I didn't think their colelctive effect on flexion of the elbow was that minor, though it make sense I suppose.

It still leads me to believe that for most folks the answer (and seemingly MA experience has backed this up) is that yes, you will be a bit slower if your fist is super tightly clenched prior to punching, perhaps not because of this specifically, maybe it is a sympathetic thing with tension elsewhere.

Anyway I wasn't trying to do anything weird with jargon or anything, my assumption was there are plenty of people on here with the background to know exactly what i'm talking about and roll with it, and maybe explain some stuff to me.

I don't think i'm offending anyone here by talking about it, there are certainly less productive threads!


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/18/08 03:56 PM)

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#406021 - 09/18/08 09:14 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
"Wouldn't the (common extensor and flexor tension) differ a bit depending on supination/pronation of the forearm and extension/flexion of the wrist though? In most puching these come into play as well don't they?"

Yes. In supination, they are more lax than in pronation. However, both are more lax in elbow flexion than extension. So by using the 'If A>B>C, then A>C' philosophy, elbow extension with pronation is the most tight while elbow flexion with supination is the most lax.

With that in mind, my punches start high in the chamber with elbow flexion and supination and the pronation does not occur until just before impact when the elbow is fully extended.

"Hmmm...I figured they didn't play the same major role as biceps or brachialis, but I didn't think their colelctive effect on flexion of the elbow was that minor, though it make sense I suppose."

The little effect is due to the small lever arm and the relatively small mass of muscle compared to the others mentioned.

"It still leads me to believe that for most folks the answer (and seemingly MA experience has backed this up) is that yes, you will be a bit slower if your fist is super tightly clenched prior to punching, perhaps not because of this specifically, maybe it is a sympathetic thing with tension elsewhere."

Yes, the reason most people have any negative effect from a tight fist is due to the overflow of tightening into other muscles. The little effect the common flexors and extensors could have is minimized further if the punch turns over at the last minute.

In fact, try this. Make a tight fist and chamber it high. Snap your hips and let the punch fly with NO purposefull shoulder flexion or elbow pronation. It will be a little less than controlled, but you will feel a very fast punch with an automatic pronation at the very end of elbow extension. It is how the joint moves when allowed to move on its own.

"Anyway I wasn't trying to do anything weird with jargon or anything, my assumption was there are plenty of people on here with the background to know exactly what i'm talking about and roll with it, and maybe explain some stuff to me."

You may be right

"I don't think i'm offending anyone here by talking about it, there are certainly less productive threads! "

You are certainly right there!
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#406022 - 09/19/08 11:42 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Saisho]
shitosempei Offline
Member

Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 28
I , for one , have enjoyed , and benefited from ,the education that this thread has given me. I have often wondered about the difference , thanks ......

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