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#406011 - 09/13/08 07:10 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Saisho]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

I am trying to stay out of the personal argument that a few people seem to have going on (maybe they don't and I am seeing it wrong). However, I would like to dispute the concept of "overtightening" which "slows down the arm."

This is completely false and has no justification of any kind. I don't care how tight you make your fist, you will not slow down your technique.

As mentioned, the muscles that tighten the fist are in the forearm and only affect the wrist and fist. The power and speed of the technique should not be coming from the elbow, let alone from the forearm and wrist.





This is incorrect, there are muscles "in the forearm" that have an effect on flexion, extension, abduction, adduction of the wrist, flexion and extension of the digits, and and flexion of the elbow further, many flexor and extensor muscles originate from the epicondyles of the humerus (i.e. the "upper arm") or thereabouts, so saying that what happens in your forearm is disconnected from everything else simply doesn't make sense.


It's debatable I agree how much affect is there, but this idea that all the muscles in your lower arm are disconnected from the upper is dead wrong as far as I know.

If you want the names of the muscles I can break out my stuff and list em' off.

Here's an example muscle:

Palmaris longus:

Originates from the common flexor tendon from medial epicondyle of humerus

inserts on flexor retinaculum and palmar aponeurosis

actions are tense palmar fascia, flex the wrist, flex the elbow

Maybe i'm missing something but as far as my kinesiology training goes the claim that forearm muscles are standalone is a mistaken one. However, i'm going to ask my teacher and get a definitive answer.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/13/08 07:15 PM)

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#406012 - 09/13/08 08:38 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
OK, thought about it some more...if by muscles which tighten the fist you are meaning only the muscles which flex the digits then I think that's disputable because you are not counting muscles which do adduction, abduction, flexion and extension of the wrist, and supination/pronation fo the forearm which should count in making a fist that's gonna receive impact as far as I can tell.

Also the forearm flexor muscles I am aware of (we don't cover every single muscle in detail) still originate largely from the medial epicondyle of the humerus (including one flexor digitorum muscle that i'm aware of), if the muscle is contracted and it crosses the joint, I don't understand how it could not affect the movement of upper arm as well.

I'm willing to listen to any alternative viewpoint but so far this ain't makin' sense.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/13/08 08:44 PM)

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#406013 - 09/15/08 11:35 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
TheCrab Offline
Scum
Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
I cant believe this is even a discussion. Even if somehow making a reasonable fist slows you down, you have to do it anyway lol

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#406014 - 09/15/08 01:55 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: TheCrab]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

I cant believe this is even a discussion. Even if somehow making a reasonable fist slows you down, you have to do it anyway lol




And I can't believe you bothered posting in the thread just to say that...

Talk about missing the point, how about just not posting next time you feel like that?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/15/08 01:56 PM)

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#406015 - 09/15/08 08:06 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
TheCrab Offline
Scum
Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
Quote:

Talk about missing the point, how about just not posting next time you feel like that?



I just made a point.

fatty

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#406016 - 09/15/08 08:49 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: TheCrab]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

Talk about missing the point, how about just not posting next time you feel like that?



I just made a point.

fatty




Thanks man, needed to be reminded about that ignore button

P.S.: Usually making a point requires something more than "hahaha d00d u r dum" which appears to be where you're at most of the time.

Ahem

Still waiting for someone with some kinesiology background to go into this a little further with me.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/15/08 08:57 PM)

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#406017 - 09/17/08 09:07 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Zach,

In part you are right, but lets not try to throw around a bunch of "knowledge" that you can go look up when there are us in this forum that do this for a living and don't have to look it up.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#406018 - 09/17/08 09:10 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Saisho]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Zach,

In part you are right, but lets not try to throw around a bunch of "knowledge" that you can go look up when there are us in this forum that do this for a living and don't have to look it up.




I'm in school using and obtaining this knowledge, while I certainly did look it up, I work on some of these and other muscles every day, I assure you that beyond just looking it up I actually have learned a bit about muscles and do have some real life exposure.

So if it rubs ya the wrong way, explain where i'm wrong. I'm happy to accept an alternate explanation.

So let me boil it down: since flexors and extensors involved in making and using a fist originate in a large part from the medial and lateral epicondyles of the humerus (crossing the elbow joint), how could contraction of them not affect the upper arm and movement of the elbow?

I was just looking for a conversation about it, and I'd think that as a phys. therapist you'd actually be able to explain it or something, instead of getting mad because I looked something up in my kinesiology texts.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/17/08 09:27 PM)

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#406019 - 09/17/08 11:51 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Yes, extensors originate on the lateral epicondyle, hence lateral epicondylitis, or "tennis elbow" from repetitive use. The medial side is, for the most part, the origin of the flexors.

Where the error, as I see it, in the logic comes is in the role these muscles play in the workings of the elbow joint. It is true that any muscle that crosses a joint has an effect on the joint movement. However, the common flexors and extensors play only a minor role in elbow movement. In fact, when the fist is tight and the elbow bends, the common flexors and extensors get a little lax.

I am not angry about anyone looking information up. As a Physical Therapist, I do have to explain these things. As a college instructor of Anatomy, Physiology and Biomechanics, I have to teach it more. However, I think it is better to keep the explanations simple for those without an anatomical background and I think it can be done without trying to make people seem less educated.

Good luck with school.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#406020 - 09/18/08 03:50 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Saisho]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Where the error, as I see it, in the logic comes is in the role these muscles play in the workings of the elbow joint. It is true that any muscle that crosses a joint has an effect on the joint movement. However, the common flexors and extensors play only a minor role in elbow movement. In fact, when the fist is tight and the elbow bends,the common flexors and extensors get a little lax.




Wouldn't he boldened portion differ a bit depending on supination/pronation of the forearm and extension/flexion of the wrist though? In most puching these come into play as well don't they?

Hmmm...I figured they didn't play the same major role as biceps or brachialis, but I didn't think their colelctive effect on flexion of the elbow was that minor, though it make sense I suppose.

It still leads me to believe that for most folks the answer (and seemingly MA experience has backed this up) is that yes, you will be a bit slower if your fist is super tightly clenched prior to punching, perhaps not because of this specifically, maybe it is a sympathetic thing with tension elsewhere.

Anyway I wasn't trying to do anything weird with jargon or anything, my assumption was there are plenty of people on here with the background to know exactly what i'm talking about and roll with it, and maybe explain some stuff to me.

I don't think i'm offending anyone here by talking about it, there are certainly less productive threads!


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/18/08 03:56 PM)

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