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#406001 - 09/05/08 05:43 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: BrianS]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
YES - YOU CAN! (If you're using the sine wave, "Chi-ball orchestration TM" and unless you're doing American goju)
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#406002 - 09/05/08 06:04 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Another thing that really works me up is people who put the toilet roll onto the holder the WRONG WAY!
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#406003 - 09/05/08 07:40 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
TheCrab Offline
Scum
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
My mates replaced mine with sandpaper the other day

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#406004 - 09/05/08 08:00 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Mark_Jakabcsin Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 75
Loc: Fort Mill, South Carolina
The amount of tension needed in the fist is actually quite small, most folks over tighten which causes tension in the arm, shoulder and even the upper back/chest. Gently pressing the tips of your fingers into the palm of your hand is generally enough. Think of holding a fly in your fist. The fly is held firmly in one place but it cannot move around.

The whole tension on impact thing is generally over done and misunderstood, imo. The increase in tension needed is minmal to have a large affect. However, if one over tenses the affect actually becomes a negative. Think of the fly in the fist. Upon impact (or better yet a tiny fraction after impact) simply squeeze enough to barely kill the fly. This increase in tension, when done properly, causes a tension reflex in the person being struck which makes the strike much deeper and more devastating. Of course this is all about delivering strikes inside the body, not the normal external strikes commonly practiced and taught.

Alightment of the fist/wrist/forearm is of utmost importantance. Get in a push-up position with a fist and hang out for awhile, 10-15 minutes. If you are doing it properly and resting on your skeleton this is no big deal. If you are using your muscles it will become difficult relatively quickly, but hang in there as the muscles wear out your body will start looking for other ways to support itself. Note the position of the wrist, if it is aligned properly the tendons have slight tension to hold the wrist in place but they do not support the load. Also note the comfort/discomfort of the fist. If you are squeezing the fist too tightly it will become painful quickly and turn white with restricted blood flow. When you are using the proper amount of tension your fist should be reasonably comfortable and when completing the drill your fingers/hand should not be overly stiff as blood has been flowing the entire time.

One other thing to study while in this position is to learn why the incorrect wrist position is bad. By really feeling this, one begins to learn what not to do and why on a deeper level. When in the leaning rest push your wrist out slightly so they are not in alignment with your fist/forearm. Note how very weak this position is an how bad your wrist feels. Now adjust so the wrists are inside and feel the same. When we strike with a bent wrist we have a similar result and much of the force of the strike goes into our own wrist intead of the target. Ouch!

Take care,

Mark J.
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Take care,

Mark J.

www.charlotte-systema.com

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#406005 - 09/06/08 05:03 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Mark_Jakabcsin]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Indeed. A friend calls the fist tightening "curling" to distinguish it from over-tension.

I make my fist as tight as possible WITHOUT tensing the wrist. This equates to a little more tension than "holding a fly" but it is definitely not the tension some people refer to that impedes/slows movement.

Insufficiently "curled" or "tightened" fists can lead to serious knuckle injuries. Overtightening is daft.
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#406006 - 09/06/08 08:18 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
I am trying to stay out of the personal argument that a few people seem to have going on (maybe they don't and I am seeing it wrong). However, I would like to dispute the concept of "overtightening" which "slows down the arm."

This is completely false and has no justification of any kind. I don't care how tight you make your fist, you will not slow down your technique.

As mentioned, the muscles that tighten the fist are in the forearm and only affect the wrist and fist. The power and speed of the technique should not be coming from the elbow, let alone from the forearm and wrist.

The body generates the power and if the elbows and above are relaxed, the speed and power will not (can not) be decreased. The only thing that could decrease them would be additional mass in the hands, which a tight fist can not cause.
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Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#406007 - 09/06/08 09:40 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Saisho]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Hi Tony

No I don't think there is an argument. I came on a bit strong with my view to Duane - but it wasn't really intended to sound like that.

I agree with your position; forearm tension shouldn't affect the speed of the body generally. However in my experience people who overtighten their muscles in their forearm also tighten up other muscles in the body!

Otherwise I agree with you - and I suppose this underlies my "strong" feelings about this; I can't see why it is even debated - teachers should pick this up very early as a fundamental error and work on "relaxing" their students. But seeing as it crops up regularly in debate among martial artists I tend to feel a bit exasperated!
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#406008 - 09/06/08 12:24 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Mark_Jakabcsin Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 75
Loc: Fort Mill, South Carolina

Tension is like napalm, it spreads.

Following are some tests that very few people can do well, perhaps you fall into the 1/2 percent category and can do them all, great for you but for most it is not so easy.

- Very slowly tighten the muscles in your forearm being hyper aware of the rest of you body. Specifically the deltoids and triceps in that arm. If you feel them move even the slightest amount that is tension. Heck it is good to roll up your sleeve and have some one watch as most people have little awareness of their own bodies. Slowly increase the tension until there is movement/tension elsewhere.

- Slowly increase the tension in a fist. Feel how the tendons run through the forearm all the way to the elbow. As you increase the tension in the fist these end points of the tendons in the elbow are affected, hence the elbow itself.

- Have a partner pick up your arm and move it about. Totally give your partner your arm so there is no tension in it. Let him feel how soft and fluid it is........or how difficult it is to be relaxed and fluid. At some point make a fist with different degrees of tension. Your partner should be telling you any differences he feels as soon as he feels them. You can also notice any dffierences in your own arm and how the tighter the fist the more difficult it is to give up the rest of your arm.

Tension spreads and the more intesnse the situation the faster it spreads.

Tension also affects the heaviness of ones hands/fists which ultimately determines if one can strike inside the body or is limited to surface strikes.

Take care,

Mark J.
_________________________
Take care,

Mark J.

www.charlotte-systema.com

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#406009 - 09/06/08 02:10 PM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: Mark_Jakabcsin]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
I do have the ability to relax my muscles at will. That is often why I was used as the "patient" for scenerios in Physical Therapy school.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#406010 - 09/08/08 04:45 AM Re: Tight fist = tense arm? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Another thing that really works me up is people who put the toilet roll onto the holder the WRONG WAY!




Oh no you didn't!!!

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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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