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#405358 - 08/22/08 10:54 AM Street fights and MMA
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Many of you talked about how different MMA was than a real self defense situation so I want to know what you base that on. To me theres only two differences, MMA fighting is going to have higher skill levels on average, and in self defense theres no rules or ref to save your a$$. So which is really going to more difficult?

Its just a question.
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#405359 - 08/22/08 11:11 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
There are so many variables in a streetfight it's hard to assess.

MMA- same weight and probably near the same skill level. Same type of training, same rules, same environment, referee, etc...

I really don't know which would be harder,but I think I would have more success in a streetfight. I've never been in an official mma match.
They are entirely two different animals.
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#405360 - 08/22/08 11:37 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

MMA fighting is going to have higher skill levels on average, and in self defense theres no rules or ref to save your a$$. So which is really going to more difficult?




I think in general an MMA fight is going to be more difficult only because you are fighting a trained fighter. In general, most people on the street just brawl, and assuming you are not caught off guard any trained MMA fighter shouldn't be to bothered by unskilled brawlers....in general. (we see them all the time in our MMA classes)

But, I would refer to Cord's video post on another thread (can't recall which one). I think that is a clip every MA and MMA student should see and digest, so they don't take their 3 BJJ classes and hit the bar looking to prove some skill.

Street fighting is just a form of violence, the worst punch you will ever feel, is the one you don't see coming.
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#405361 - 08/22/08 11:41 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: BrianS]
Dereck Offline
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Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
MMA fighting will be harder then street fighting; there is absolutely no question about it.

In a street fight I would fair well; better then average for sure due to training. However having trained around people that do MMA and knowing what they do to prepare and at the levels they do; I wouldn't fair well. I don't have the training attention or drive that they do plus the commitment. Training for MMA is hard and if you want to fight high level people then that means not only training at higher levels it means changing things in your fight game and that is a mental thing. Plus you are always needing to sharpen your skills plus take on others.

Street fights are over in seconds, MMA fights can be 5 each 5 minute rounds. Street fights look like brawls and are rarely technical where as MMA fights are technical. Lets put it this way, you could put a MMA fighter in the streets and would probably kick A$$ but put a street fighter in the MMA ring and he'll be the one on the losing end.

There is no training in street fighting, any punk can do that. Has a lot to do with ego more then anything else and in many cases most people don't really want to fight but due to this ego, egging on by friends, intoxication (liquid courage) or to impress people they will fight and usually the first to the punch wins. In MMA both are coming to fight and are prepared as they have been training; they are "prepared".

Oh, and just for the record, street fighting is not self defense. Street fighting again is an ego thing as explained above and it can be avoided. Self defense is defending your life in situations that you have little to no control over. (i.e. mugging, raping, etc.)
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#405362 - 08/22/08 11:46 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Dereck]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Good post Dereck!

Kimo,

Lazy butt, find the video and post it!
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#405363 - 08/22/08 11:49 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Kimo2007]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
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Quote:

Street fighting is just a form of violence, the worst punch you will ever feel, is the one you don't see coming.




Nice Kimo, I like that. And again, street fighting ... any punk can do that.
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#405364 - 08/22/08 11:54 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: BrianS]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Lazy butt




LOL Guilty as charged!

OK I admit that post was my way of getting Matt to do my work for me, but I will search the threads and find the video myself!

(feels like my wife logged in and yelled at me!)

[url//www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXf5GKaGy9s]Cord's Video Post[/url]


Edited by Kimo2007 (08/22/08 12:02 PM)

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#405365 - 08/22/08 01:23 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree fighting skilled trained people is alot more difficult then street fighting, though there is a rare chance it could be the same.

I do think MMA is safer in that that its a controlled enviroment with referees, doctors, no weapons and none of his buddies around in match, MMA is safer bc you can No mass anytime you want. Street fighting there is more a chance you can be beaten to death. MMA pays, if u get to that level.

But as far as defeating a MMAer with their aerobic level, striking power, overalll aresenal and fittness as high as it is, Street fighting is easy. Because you can run and you don't care if they ask you back to fight again.


Edited by Neko456 (08/22/08 01:38 PM)

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#405366 - 08/22/08 03:35 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Neko456]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
MMA sport is sparring in a weight class. Unless you train certain attributes to be on the same level or better than your opponent a street fighter wont stand a chance in an mma match. A street fighter uses dirty tactics in order to fight out of his weight class. There are no rules in the street.

Currently I train for street fighting.
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#405367 - 08/22/08 07:45 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: TeK9]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I don't train MMA, so I don't have a direct opinion on that part but:

I think it's unwise to automatically assume a "streetfight" is strictly a category that involves 2 drunken, unskilled idiots.

It may not be a socially laudable skill (somewhat at least) as skilled MMA fighting is, but there are plenty of people out there who are very skilled at commiting violent acts completely outside of an MMA or even "fair fighting" context, to me that is the type of person to think about in terms of a "streetfight" moreso than some guy who just wants a dedicated one on one with ya.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (08/22/08 07:59 PM)

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#405368 - 08/22/08 10:28 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I agree that "street fight" does not equate to what I have called "civilian defence".

We've debated this topic here: http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...part=1&vc=1

I think the consensus was the MMA could prepare you well for civilian defence since it involves a high degree of "live" training but that it does not equate to civilian defence as its scope and purpose is different (ie. it is training you to win in a combat sport).

While this difference might seem subtle to some, I think it has significant implications on how one approaches and deals with a conflict.

Civilian defence arts have techniques that are applicable for that purpose, but are often trained without any "live" aspect.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (08/22/08 10:40 PM)
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#405369 - 08/23/08 04:16 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
To me, the fight without the ref is going to be more dangerous. Theres too many variables, weapons, other attackers, enviromental hazards, and lastly the skill of the opponent. Like it was sai before, streetfighter is a loose term and it doesnt necessarily mean a drunkard or addict. People who mug people for a living for example, have learned alot about hurting people quickly to get what they want and get away.

Also, how many times have you sparred with a newbie and got hit with something you didnt expect because it wasnt done with "Skill" or it was something that isnt normally done by people with skill? Happens to alot of people. It seems like alot of higher level "Skilled" fighters have the same pace, an the same system of doing things.

Personally, Id rather have a ref watching my back. At least then I know Im going to walk away without any serious damage.
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#405370 - 08/23/08 09:30 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Also, how many times have you sparred with a newbie and got hit with something you didnt expect because it wasnt done with "Skill" or it was something that isnt normally done by people with skill?




Isn't that the truth!
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#405371 - 08/24/08 09:13 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Also, how many times have you sparred with a newbie and got hit with something you didnt expect because it wasnt done with "Skill" or it was something that isnt normally done by people with skill? Happens to alot of people. It seems like alot of higher level "Skilled" fighters have the same pace, an the same system of doing things.




There is a lot of truth in that statement. Yet that happens more with folks at a more intermediate experience level. After you have been around awhile and have seen everything you can see, the surprises don't come anymore. Again, there are only so many ways a human can hit and kick. Only so many angles and variables.

I would agree that street fighting has more variables and is more unpredictable. People will shoot you in real life. It's a different world, yet the two aren't as far apart as we might imagine, when looked at from a mechanistic point of view. Situations and circumstances vary, delivery systems will remain unchanged. The main difference from a street fight and mma is your strategy.

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#405372 - 08/24/08 10:46 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
You touch on an important point, Chen Zen.

First of all, let's admit that while a MMA fight is not exactly a street fight, it is about as @#$% close as you can get within the bounds of safety and reason.

But the second point is that most so-called "street fighters"--i.e. untrained fighters--are very BAD fighters. In a way, MMA training is likely to overprepare you for dealing with these yahoos.

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#405373 - 08/24/08 07:29 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: fileboy2002]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

it is about as @#$% close as you can get




In terms of intensity, perhaps. In terms of dynamics (what actually happens, how it plays out, what tactics and techniques are used, etc.) - no. Not from what I've seen as a prosecutor.

This is my sole objection to this line of argument: "sports fighting is so close to attacks in the community it might as well be the same thing". This is a leap usually made by those who haven't experienced savage, unprovoked attacks (that result in criminal investigation and prosecution).

The "bounds of safety and reason" to which you refer are precisely what often distinguishes "real" fighting from "controlled real" fighting.

Note: this is very distinct from saying "MMA doesn't prepare you for defence" etc. - this is not what I'm saying.
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#405374 - 08/24/08 07:38 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: JKogas]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
[quoteAfter you have been around awhile and have seen everything you can see, the surprises don't come anymore. Again, there are only so many ways a human can hit and kick. Only so many angles and variables.




That's true. But every now and again I underestimate a beginner and cop an odd move (finger in the eye, stomp on the shin). It doensn't happy too often, but people doing "dorky" things that don't normally work (particularly in restricted technique sparring) can surprise me even after all this time.

I once grappled a beginner onto the floor onto his stomach (with me behind and to one side, about to get a full sleeper hold) when the beginner bent his back almost in half, and cracked me on the bridge of the nose with both his heels (he was hyper-flexible)... Odd things happen.
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#405375 - 08/25/08 06:44 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: dandjurdjevic]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

In terms of intensity, perhaps. In terms of dynamics (what actually happens, how it plays out, what tactics and techniques are used, etc.) - no. Not from what I've seen as a prosecutor.





Perhaps it would help you further extrapolated on this a bit. Help us to get a better picture of what you're trying to say.


Quote:


This is my sole objection to this line of argument: "sports fighting is so close to attacks in the community it might as well be the same thing". This is a leap usually made by those who haven't experienced savage, unprovoked attacks (that result in criminal investigation and prosecution).





The main difference being what? That they aren't first hiding in the bushes before they start fighting?

Mechanically speaking, what is different? No one is saying that MMA is a street fight. People here just understand that from a mechanistic perspective, that two guys duking it out is either going to resemble good or bad mma. For MY health and well-being, this should resemble good mma to the best of my capabilities.



Quote:


The "bounds of safety and reason" to which you refer are precisely what often distinguishes "real" fighting from "controlled real" fighting.

Note: this is very distinct from saying "MMA doesn't prepare you for defence" etc. - this is not what I'm saying.





So, you are essentially stating what's already been mentioned by others; that MMA is not street fighting. Gotcha. Honestly, I think you are underestimating the intelligence of most folks here (on second thought, that's probably not a bad idea). However some of us get it already.

However, so that we more clearly understand YOU and where you're coming from, try to give more of your point of view. All you're doing is saying that MMA is different than street fighting (which we already understand). What you're NOT doing is explaining why YOU see it that way.

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#405376 - 08/25/08 10:14 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: JKogas]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Perhaps it would help you further extrapolated on this a bit. Help us to get a better picture of what you're trying to say.




Well, apart from the fact that I'm all talked out on this issue after a 6000 word essay, lets see...

By "dynamics" I mean how things play out. I have previously given the example that if in a boxing match you knew Mike Tyson was going to bite your ear you wouldn't clinch him. This is not the same as saying "biting beats grapplers" - it means that this small detail could alter the dynamics of what you do - consciously and subconsciously.

Consider that if you suspect that the police are waiting at every street exit to a drinking venue, you're going to avoid driving home over the limit. The question won't be "how will you drive" or "what techniques will you employ to evade the police". Driving simply won't be in issue.

How does this translate to what I'm saying? Subtle things alter dynamics fundamentally. How are the dynamics of a particular street fight different from ring fight? It will depend on the individual situation. There is no single answer to this. All I can say with certainty is that the very predictable start and other controlled elements of a ring fight are not there. The surface is different, there are no rules or constraints (yes I know you get all het up about this word John, but bear with me), there are no gloves (however thin you might have them in your sport), the lighting is different - all of these factors, however small, play a role. You change one variable you necessarily get a different dynamic.

It might be what you have in your mind (eg. loss of temper, a different motivation to sports - ie. not wanting to be hurt rather than "winning" - or an awareness of a nearby loved one etc.). It might be the presence of multiple attackers/weapons/obstacles. It might be the lack of space. The list is endless. The ramifications are unpredictable. All we know with certainty from chaos theory is that there will be an effect on the resulting dynamic of how the whole fight "plays out" from start (a bit of aggro) to finish (one side being incapacitated or both sides being pulled away).

This is why I choose to focus on the one part of any fight that is a constant - in MMA or otherwise: what I call the "melee". More on that in a second.

Quote:

The main difference being what? That they aren't first hiding in the bushes before they start fighting?




I take this to be a factual question as to how fights actually differ from sport. I will do my best to answer it on the basis of my own observations of video evidence of real fighting. From what I've seen, there is usually no chance for squaring off or other preparation (if there is, this is not in the same ballpark as a civilian defence scenario). Some techniques (like thigh kicks) are rarely used (at least with any effect). There are no "closing the gap" issues - the gap is closed from the start. People usually don't get a chance to dodge, bob and weave. Think "toe to toe" fighting in any system and you have an idea. This is the "melee" range to which I have often referred.

Quote:

Mechanically speaking, what is different? No one is saying that MMA is a street fight.




No one is saying?

Chen Zen began this post with a simple question:

Quote:

Many of you talked about how different MMA was than a real self defense situation so I want to know what you base that on. To me theres only two differences, MMA fighting is going to have higher skill levels on average, and in self defense theres no rules or ref to save your a$$. So which is really going to more difficult?




Are these the only differences? Isn't this the same as putting forward the view that MMA and "real" fighting are indistinguishable except in relation to the skill and the ref saving your a$$?

Quote:

People here just understand that from a mechanistic perspective, that two guys duking it out is either going to resemble good or bad mma. For MY health and well-being, this should resemble good mma to the best of my capabilities.




Which part should resemble good MMA? I suspect you mean the actual "melee" portion. If so, I agree that for the period of the "melee" there is very little mechanical difference in many cases. This is not to say that some techniques aren't better in a "melee" than others (as opposed to moves that are useful in the "set-up" or "tactical entry" phase). This is probably where we disagree on (at least preferred) method. I would prefer the melee to look more like good TMA...

In short, I believe what I've called the previously called "melee" portion of any fight is as close as you get to parts of a real fight. In any competition this comprises only about 10-20% of the fight (taking away the squaring off, the "gap bridging" tactics, looking for openings, etc.). These are precisely the dynamics that I believe are fundamentally altered (while the wild "melee" remains largely the same in any fight - from MMA through to the brief and furious interchange of karate ippon shobu competition - even though we would both agree that the techniques are not very good for self-defence in the latter case).

Quote:

So, you are essentially stating what's already been mentioned by others; that MMA is not street fighting. Gotcha. Honestly, I think you are underestimating the intelligence of most folks here (on second thought, that's probably not a bad idea). However some of us get it already.




That's good that you get it. I didn't get that feeling from some of the posts. The "near as @#$%" is, to me, a minimisation of the dynamic shift to the point of ridicule. It suggests to me that "MMA = real fighting". I am more than prepared to say that MMA is very intense - the intensity can be far greater than a real fight and can be very good preparation for real fighting. But for me all but the brief interchanges in combat are not like a real fight and in some respects couldn't be further from it.

Quote:

What you're NOT doing is explaining why YOU see it that way.




I think I've done far more to explain my position on this forum and elsewhere than most people have or would. My articles on:

The "melee" range;

Evasion vs. blocking with evasion;

Staying in the "melee";

The karate 'kamae' or guard; and of course

Civilian defence systems,

just to name a few, set out a consistent and (I think) thoughtful, researched and readable account of how I approach this whole question.

You might disagree with my view and clearly it is bound to be imperfect. However it constitutes an honest and sincere effort at an analysis, based on my experience - not dogma or MMA bashing or "not getting it". It is not as confrontational as it seems to be interpreted (though it is clearly controversial - but who ever said we should all sit on the fence?). The fact that I argue against some common sports techniques is hardly surprising. If I didn't think there was a better way of doing X or Y, I wouldn't be doing what I do. However such technical disagreements are not a wholesale "put down" of obviously effective fighters, MMA or otherwise. And it is not some tired and ludicrous pre-UFC defence of inflexible TMA approaches. In case you hadn't noticed, I have a progressive approach to TMA that not everyone sees as "the right direction". At least I "put it out there". And I'm sure that I have overstated some arguments in the rush to expound a particular view.

So to summarise:

The question posed as I understood it was in essence: "how is MMA different from from streetfighting?" My answer is that it is different in the dynamics - a very unpredictable set of circumstances which, though subtle, affect what happens. I wasn't proposing to give a predictive analysis of how a real fight will play out - merely say that it is unpredictable. And that I consider this to be the reason that of all the prosecution videos I've watched very few looked like an MMA fight. Did they look a bit like parts of an MMA fight? Yes - they often looked a bit like the brief "melee" element of any fight for that matter.
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#405377 - 08/25/08 10:20 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree that street fighters can be a skilled fighters to some degree and they know how to hurt people quickly.

But a well trained MMAer at a prime fitness level is a unqiue physical speciment nearly professional they maybe the supreme athlet with stamina and arsenal that is superior to the Pro Boxer(not in punching range) imho. Though its my opinion that a MMAer without this fitness level or beginner that lack the indept training fighting as close as they fight can get hurt badly in a SF.

I also will like to say that there is a difference in being hit by a skilled striker and a unskilled sloopy punch. One you can shake off the other shakes you. Skilled striker = Street Fer or Trained Fer we know a solid haymaker can do as much damage as a good struck hook but one is easier to evade imho.

Street fighters can be skilled but rarely are they skilled at more then 1 r 2 ranges, though they can be fit they rarely have the fitness of a Golden glove boxer or wrestler unless they are one, and I'll add if they were anygood they'd be in a gym rather then street fighting.

A skilled MAAer is a harder fight then a Streetfighter not downing SFs abilities, he would be a harder fight then the average Boxer, TKDer, Kung-fu, Karate or just Judo/wrestler that doesn't train as hard. IMO.

Let me add this a S fighter on PCP is tougher then any MMAer or Trained fighter imagine fighting a near Terminator nothing you hit him with can hurt him, you may can choke him out if you can get in that close.

The intensity in the training and variety in preperation is different for MMAer who aim is to be a Pro.

But I believe MMA is safer because its a ring sport street fight is foreal anything goes weapons, buddies, no rules, no giving up or tapping out that just seems to intensify the a$$ whipping saying U give up. MAA is definitely safer.


Edited by Neko456 (08/25/08 10:32 AM)
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#405378 - 08/25/08 03:32 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Neko456]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
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Nobody is discounting the dynamics of street fights compared to MMA fights. It goes without saying that more variables come into play in a street fight such as lighting, ground surface, multiple attackers, weapons, etc ... those are a given and we all understand that right? Good, we can get rid of these and then look at the fighters.

The reason this post was done by Chen is because in another thread he has claimed that he was a proficient street fighter never to have lost over countless of fights that by his watching Anderson Silva he saw holes in his game and that he believes he could beat him. It has been my opinion and shared by others that street fighting is not MMA fighting ... and we can all agree it is not.

While I don't doubt there are some excellent street fighters out there, and I know of some, none can dispute that stepping in the octagon/ring means you are going to be a good MMA fighter; quite the contrary. While a MMA fighter could fight easily enough in a street fight in the ring a street fighter would not fair as well. That is what this discussion is really about.

I see the point of the "ref" brought up all of the time and that is pointless. If the ref did not step in or if there was no ref in the ring and the fighters were left to their own accord then somebody would be seriously injured or dead; that is the only difference. And one cannot dispute that a MMA fighter trains and prepares for each fight at high levels where as a street fight is mostly an occurrence; random happening, or sought out as a routine for $hits and giggles by punks.

I can get in a street fight, you can get in a street fight, anybody can get into a street fight. How would we fair, it would depend on "variables" however our preparedness will be simple and quick. Where as not just anybody can become a MMA fighter and many that do don't fair well and very few make it to the show. And many could not train at the high levels to prepare; which is one of the hardest things to do; the fight is the easier of the two. Plus we can all agree that in a MMA fight both parties come to this prepared and have been mentally and physically preparing for it where as in a street fight perhaps only one really is looking for this to happen and that person may be the prepared out of the two.

While street fighting and MMA are two different things they are still fighting so have a common ground; the fight, once you take out all of the variables. Who is the better fighter? The one trained, the one more prepared, the one more conditioned, the one more experienced, the one for skilled, the one that won't panic ... and more times then not it will be the MMA fighter.
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#405379 - 08/25/08 04:57 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: dandjurdjevic]
fileboy2002 Offline
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dandjurdjevic,

I think you are touching on an important point here. In reality, a "fight" is often NOT a matter of one guy beating up on another guy. It is four or five guys beating up on one guy, a guy with a baseball bat smashing someone in the head from behind, a large, powerful man assaulting an elderly woman, etc. Unfortunately, these are not things we can really train for. If you are attacked by a group of people, you are in DEEP TROUBLE, period. It barely matters how much training you have when the odds against you are impossible.

What I was objecting to was the notion that since real fights cannot be fully simulated, no martial art is more realistic than any other. This is false. While MMA matches are not "real" fights, they are far closer than, say, TKD matches. These in turn are much closer to reality than aikido practice. It is the artist AND the art that matters.

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#405380 - 08/25/08 05:18 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
matxtx Offline
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Someone asks Bas Rutten a similar question here.
At the bottom of the page is an answer to an older similar question thats relevant too.

http://strictlysp.forumotion.com/qa-with-bas-rutten-f12/preference-t694.htm

Some might find it interesting.

A fight is a fight no matter how it starts.Once its physical its a fight.So a better all round trained fighter will always fair better.
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#405381 - 08/25/08 07:03 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: matxtx]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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I see your point Dereck. I have misread Chen Zen's intent. A street fighter will be no match for a good MMA fighter.

And yes fileboy - MMA is more realistic than a TKD match, which is more "live" than aikido practice. Your point is well made also.
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#405382 - 08/25/08 07:11 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: matxtx]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Yes indeed - once you get to Bas' level of fighting and skill it all becomes one. So it is with all the best fighters.
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#405383 - 08/25/08 07:19 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: matxtx]
JKogas Offline
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Good points by everyone so far. Dereck and Filboy have basically said what I was going to. No point in repeating them here.

dandjurdjevic, I don't think we're all that far apart in terms of philosophy. Hopefully I will have the time to actually read your blog one of these days. I don't have much free time which is partly why I asked for you to clarify your points HERE (and thanks for that).


-John

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#405384 - 08/26/08 04:57 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Dereck]
Cord Offline
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Quote:

Nobody is discounting the dynamics of street fights compared to MMA fights. It goes without saying that more variables come into play in a street fight such as lighting, ground surface, multiple attackers, weapons, etc ... those are a given and we all understand that right? Good, we can get rid of these and then look at the fighters.

The reason this post was done by Chen is because in another thread he has claimed that he was a proficient street fighter never to have lost over countless of fights that by his watching Anderson Silva he saw holes in his game and that he believes he could beat him. It has been my opinion and shared by others that street fighting is not MMA fighting ... and we can all agree it is not.

While I don't doubt there are some excellent street fighters out there, and I know of some, none can dispute that stepping in the octagon/ring means you are going to be a good MMA fighter; quite the contrary. While a MMA fighter could fight easily enough in a street fight in the ring a street fighter would not fair as well. That is what this discussion is really about.

I see the point of the "ref" brought up all of the time and that is pointless. If the ref did not step in or if there was no ref in the ring and the fighters were left to their own accord then somebody would be seriously injured or dead; that is the only difference. And one cannot dispute that a MMA fighter trains and prepares for each fight at high levels where as a street fight is mostly an occurrence; random happening, or sought out as a routine for $hits and giggles by punks.

I can get in a street fight, you can get in a street fight, anybody can get into a street fight. How would we fair, it would depend on "variables" however our preparedness will be simple and quick. Where as not just anybody can become a MMA fighter and many that do don't fair well and very few make it to the show. And many could not train at the high levels to prepare; which is one of the hardest things to do; the fight is the easier of the two. Plus we can all agree that in a MMA fight both parties come to this prepared and have been mentally and physically preparing for it where as in a street fight perhaps only one really is looking for this to happen and that person may be the prepared out of the two.

While street fighting and MMA are two different things they are still fighting so have a common ground; the fight, once you take out all of the variables. Who is the better fighter? The one trained, the one more prepared, the one more conditioned, the one more experienced, the one for skilled, the one that won't panic ... and more times then not it will be the MMA fighter.




That may be one of the best posts I have ever read
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#405385 - 08/26/08 01:21 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Cord]
mdsj Offline
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I just want to say that I have really enjoyed this topic. There was a lot of talk about dynamics and how they alter the outcome. I think any form of self defense training is great, and I do enjoy MMA a lot. I do want to stress that there are martial arts out there that prepare you for the uncontrollable dynamics of a street fight, such as weapons, multiple attackers, fighting in a crowded area, etc. I feel that these arts are a must for anyone really interested in self defense, and are great tools to add to your toolbox for anyone including MMA fighters.
I especially think that its useful since many of the MMA schools are getting away from the true use of the martial arts they utilise which is self defense, and are teaching strictly how to "cage fight" and utilise the rules of the ring.
And trust me the way you train is the way you are going to fight, either in a ring or on the street.
This may be a little off topic, sorry. But the original topic is well covered.

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#405386 - 08/26/08 03:13 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: mdsj]
Dereck Offline
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Quote:

And trust me the way you train is the way you are going to fight, either in a ring or on the street.




That statement is valid however has many flaws. Even if you train true self defense you always have to STOP before injuring your partner. You can never truly choke them out. You can never strike vital areas with any real force. You cannot bite. You cannot eye gouge. You cannot do anything beyond slight pressure. So to say how you train is how you will react then says anybody practicing self defense would STOP prior to inflicting any damage and that the only true training method is to destroy your partner so that you know how to really destroy them.

That of course we know is not true. We know that we do "understand" what is to happen next and to take it to the next level, and that goes for MMA fighters as well. In fact MMA fighters may have one up on everybody else because while most people train, MMA fighters go in the ring and pound on somebody to seriously hurt them and they only stop because the ref makes them stop. They at least get a feel to seriously injury their "opponent" while most of us don't have that luxury with our "partner".

The statement would be more valid if one were to say that if you practice crappy self defense or no defense then you ... well ... you are $hit out of luck because you are in over your head. But for anybody that does train in a valid type of fighting/self defense system, the transition of not injuring your partner to seriously hurting your opponent is only a simple transition. Remember, when training we most times are not angry or hate the person we are with. An opponent or assailant is out to hurt or kill you, that is the transition, that simple.
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#405387 - 08/26/08 03:47 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Dereck]
BrianS Offline
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Very true Dereck!!

Personally I hate everyone I train with or meet so I have no problem maiming or killing my partners. That leaves me less vulnerable on the str33ts!!!!
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#405388 - 08/26/08 03:57 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: BrianS]
Dereck Offline
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Is that why Oldman is missing?
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#405389 - 08/26/08 04:10 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Dereck]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

Is that why Oldman is missing?




You know, i've been wondering where he is.

Maybe the ads won't let him access the forums unless he buys some of those damn reeboks!!
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#405390 - 08/26/08 04:21 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: BrianS]
Cord Offline
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oldman is a very 'good karma' kind of guy- he has taken a back seat from the forums before when they got all hissy and overwhelmingly negative. His absence this time round coincided with all the hysteria about the adds and various people falling on their virtual swords.
I am sure he will return when we all get a teeny bit more constructive and happy
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#405391 - 08/27/08 09:10 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Cord]
Tom2199 Offline
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Street fights can be very broad if you ask me, its not all eye gouging, groin stomping scrambling around on the floor fighting for your lives.

All of the people iv been in a street fight with did not want to kill me just appose their dominance and feel good about themselves by injuring someone with a sucker punch.

Fortunately im an aggressive, focused boxer i pretty much switch on like a light from a calm individual to the drill Sargent from full metal jacket. Thats something that Muay Thai and MMA training in the ring has given me. You have to be hungry and aggressive to win fights i say this because iv sat back and counter punched and lost fights when iv clearly outscored them. Mental Toughness is what breaks the other man in my opinion, and when fatigue sets in you really get to see who wants it more.

Oh and another thing id just like to say is, street fights are easy (all the ones iv been in are) simply because your opponents are not trained or ready for what you have for them.
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#405392 - 08/29/08 12:09 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Tom2199]
Chen Zen Offline
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Dereck misread the intent of this post as well. I didnt post because" I have tons of unbeaten streetfights so I think I can beat Silva".

Wrong. I train MMA and o so very well, thats why I think I can beat silva.

I simply said, in the other topic, that to me a street fight is going to be more difficult and more dangerous which is why I posted this new thread here.

I stand by my view.

Thanks to all
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#405393 - 08/29/08 06:30 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
Dereck Offline
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Sorry Chen. I figured that this thread was started due to the previous thread in conjunction with these comments:

Quote:

Also I wonder how many fights has he had outside of the gym or ring? Ive had plenty, and theres not a person in the world who can say they beat me. Which would give me reason to believe that I would be a more "professional fighter" than someone who has only fought under the constructs of competition despite my short "MMA Career".




Quote:

How can I think that I could beat Anderson? Easy. Ive got plenty of fights under my belt, rather they were sanctioned MMA fights or not, a fight is a fight




Again, I don't believe for one moment that street fighting is going to be more difficult then a MMA bought and I've already stated for the record why. Now as for dangerous, yes street fighting has the potential for sure because of many variables; no question.

If a knife or gun or another weapon is involved; sure it is more dangerous. Multiple attackers can definitely be more dangerous. And the environment can also be more potentially dangerous however with adrenalin how hard the ground is whether gravel or cement rarely play a factor till later unless you are dropped on your head which remarkably has the same effect while in the ring.

We are not arguing these as I think these are given. However I ask of you Chen, of your street fighting experience you've stated "not a person can say they beat you". I am assuming from this they were one on one encounters as I think we would all agree vary rarely will a person survive an attack by more then one person. And I can assume that weapons were not used or if any involvement very rare and ineffectively used by people that had no clue how to use them as you are still with us. So to me this means just a straight out brawl of dominance between probably less skilled or people with no skill at all. These hardly would transfer over to being a successful MMA fighter.

I know, you stand by your view. I would be interested if you ever start training and do get a chance to fight in the ring if that will change? That can be the only true test because until that happens it is just here say.
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#405394 - 09/01/08 05:14 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Dereck]
Chen Zen Offline
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Dereck,

One on one, I havent been beaten, correct. However, I have been jumped several times, and suffered several injuries. I one point I was even gutted. And I see what your saying about it not being conditioned MMA fighters, however, not every guy you fight outside of the ring is untalented and out of shape.

A MMA fight is timed, against someone of your weight class, and there is no surprise. You start facing each other and you know he is going to attack. After 3-5 minutes He HAS to STOP. He HAS to do what the ref says.

Very little to none of that is true for the street. He may be a foot taller and 100 pounds heavier. He may blindside you, and he may not stop until he kills you or seriously injures you. He may have friends or weapons or both as well.

Ive been in small scrapes and Ive had all out wars. Ive fought junkies, home intruders and even other MA'S. So the consistancy may be less, but personally Im going to feel safer in the ring. And I have fought competition as well, though not in a cage so Ive experienced the difference. Of all The MA fights Ive had and street fights Ive been into the worst one besides being gutted came from a home intruder high on heroin. I beat the guy down four times before the cops arrived because he just kept coming. I nearly killed him, I broke several ribs, slipped a disk in his back and gave him a very serious concussion. Through all of that he kept coming. It wasnt until the police turned on my street that he even attempted to leave.

Thats just to give you a little perspective on my POV.
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#405395 - 09/01/08 08:21 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
Spade Offline
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Posts: 255
Loc: Auburn, Al.
I think what you're basically saying is you believe you will be comfortable in the ring, because of your previous fighting experience?
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#405396 - 09/02/08 03:11 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
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Sounds like to me you should have just shot the junkie,lol.

I think most of us get your pov,but I don't think fighting on the streets translates to a good cagefighter. Every case is different. Atleast you won't have that shock of being hit for the first time and not know what to do,lol, I love that part about teaching.
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#405397 - 09/02/08 06:55 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: BrianS]
Chen Zen Offline
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Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Your right Brian, streetfighting does not make you a good MMA fighter, but there are some things that are going to transfer from one to the other and I believe that at least having the experiences I have will make it a comfortable transition. After surviving the types of things that I have seen and been through, a simple punch or kick in a controlled enviroment isnt going to shake me up.
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#405398 - 09/02/08 08:39 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
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No, I don't suspect it would shake anyone up who is a seasoned martial artist or streetfighter.

Everything surrounding the fight might shake you up though. It would me.
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#405399 - 09/03/08 11:05 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: BrianS]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
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Quote:



Everything surrounding the fight might shake you up though. It would me.




Like what?
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#405400 - 09/03/08 11:10 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
MattJ Offline
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The audience, the lights, the cage itself - all of it. Lots of fighters get flustered by those things.
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#405401 - 09/03/08 11:14 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: MattJ]
Chen Zen Offline
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Yeah I could understand that. Its not too much different than TMA tournament atmospheres though is it? Perhaps more audience but I would imagine that all that disappears the first time you get hit!
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#405402 - 09/03/08 01:55 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
Dereck Offline
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I think it would be a "huge" difference then a TMA tournament atmosphere.

In TMA you are not training like you are training for a MMA fight. You do not know who you are fighting against and working a game plan to fight them. You are not getting into the shape that you would for a TMA fight. You are not going in for weigh ins and where all of the promotional hype is going on. There are mind games that are played by your opponent and by you. There is the build up for the fight. There is YOUR mind working things over and over and over preparing for the fight the whole time as well as prior to walking out. You have lights, cameras, video equipment, musics, MMA fans (like or dislike you; cheer or boo you) and so much more going on. TMA is nothing like that.

TMA while I got nervous prior to fighting for both TKD and Grappling, that would be a walk in the park compared to MMA.

It is very common to get pre fight jitters, a lot of people go through it. And after a while you get settled however then a big fight comes up and you go through it again. Mentally preparing is a huge part of MMA fighting. If you were nervous for any TMA fight you will think that it was a cake walk when you head out to that ring. I've heard this from many people and even when they were focused it still played a part of the game.
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#405403 - 09/03/08 08:22 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
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I don't think in TMA tournaments you'll have a bunch of drunk and beligerent people yelling YEEEAAHHH KICK THAT MF ers ASS!!!!! YEAH!!! WOOH!!

www.arkmma.com check the link for upcoming events.

WCL has applications on their website too if you are interested. Much better suited to your style of fighting.
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#405404 - 09/04/08 10:35 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: BrianS]
Chen Zen Offline
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Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Thanks Brian

Dereck, I would think that knowing exactly who your opponent was would make you more at ease than not knowing at all.

As for the crowd, didnt you ever have a fight in high school? At least at the tourney you dont personally know the crowd or the voices booing you. Get your a$$ kicked in front of two or three hundred people you have to see everyday or people you dont know? Better they dont know me.

As for the weigh in and meia and so on, thats just part of the hype machine. Thats too be expected, just like kids in school talk mess, same thing just on a larger scale.
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#405405 - 09/04/08 11:38 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
Tom2199 Offline
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Chen to be honest you arnt going to know who your fighting for the first 5-7 fights, after that they might give you a name but that's not exactly knowing someone. it can do quite the opposite knowing someone anyway, i got told i was fighting an ex European champion named mark lee for my first pro fight it didn't exactly instill confidence in me.
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#405406 - 09/04/08 01:57 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Tom2199]
Dereck Offline
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Agreed. On smaller scales I know for a fact that it is common to be given a fighters name and then to have it changed one or more times as it gets closer to the actual fight. And you really don't know who the fighter is in most cases, a name perhaps and what you can google or tid bits here and there. And it is not uncommon to get to the day and find the fighter doesn't show up or cannot fight and your fight is canceled. Or you will fight a person that doesn't make weight whether by intention or not and you have the choice to still fight or not; with of course them taken less of a purse.

On top of that you have to deal with promoters. You have to deal with getting paid very little. I would think that MMA is pretty standard for requirements as for your first fight you have to get a brain scan which in Canada is around $300, not sure how much in the US. That comes out of your pocket and could be your payout for the fight. And if you get knocked out or injured bad you will need to have another done prior to your next fight. This is all to cover their asses should you die or become a vegetable.

So all that while you are training to fight a particular fighter and trying to work on what you "think" is their strength. And again if the fighter changes then that strength could change as well.

I've also found that with constant focus you start thinking too much about the fight and the person you are fighting. Unlike TMA where you show up and fight unknowns, or perhaps people you know a little about, you don't get as worked up and you don't have to worry about knowing what they may or may not do; you just go in and do your thing and with myself I settle in after the first match. This is "one" fight for 3 rounds and unlike TMA this is much more brutal and again you may have to deal with prefight jitters or just shooting your load right out of the gate; especially common with first time fighters.

And then you have to deal with your mind in the ring; that can be your worst enemy. What you thought were your strengths are seeming to not have the affect you thought. Some how he seems faster, quicker. He's countering you and getting strikes in on you. Do you go gun ho or stick with the plan? Got to settle those nerves and get into a groove. Not feeling the pain ... good. Second round ... dang I can feel that a bit; got to get my breathing under control. Third round ... why won't this guy go down? I've been in here for an hour it seems. I'm tired, bleeding and sore ... come on go down already.

Lots to think about above and beyond the environment (lights, crowd, music, etc.). Nothing like TMA and nothing like a street fight.
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#405407 - 09/05/08 05:57 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Dereck]
Chen Zen Offline
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Both good posts. We'll have to see how it goes, but its something I look forward to. I ont believe the crowd is going to bother or the fight itself, as they're both something Im used to. The days of forethought is a different matter, as Ive only been through that once and your right, it was quite nerve racking
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#405408 - 11/12/08 12:41 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Neko456]
Inner_Ear Offline
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Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 29
This is indeed an interesting thread, and the question is equally intriguing as to whether or not MMA training will ensure survivability in a street fight, well here's my two cents:

1. Dynamics

I will not reinvent the wheel here with this one, there are factors which change the possible outcomes, and they run the gambit from physical to emotional with everything in between, that being said I think there's three Laws of Combat that could apply to dynamics.

1. You are NOT a Superman!
2. If it is stupid but works, it isn't stupid.
3. Anything you do can get you shot including doing nothing.

2. Goals

What each contendor wishes to accomplish in the engagement can be two entirely different things, and that can lead to a raising of the stakes to lethal levels very quickly in a street fight. In MMA matches the goal is the same: victory; the goal behind the drive in each contender to win however will be different, some for fame, some for money, some for revenge, and the list will go on. In each case a persons approach to a situation changes as their perceptions and this can be an advantage or disadvantage if caught. If you know that person 'X' feels bad about his buddies laughing at him for not scoring with the 'princess' across the floor and he wants to still prove he's got bigger bits and pieces than them by taking on someone he thinks is an easy target, you know he won't be expecting a quick blow to the eyes, and legs with a choke hold following. A trained and seasoned fighter will instinctively take note of their opponents size, especially if they have advantages and disadvantages relevant to the outcome of the fight.

To sum up: Matches for sport are usually in controlled environments with as many external factors eliminated as possible making it more technical, unlike street fights which force you to be a bit more aware. Learning to see underneath the underneath keeps the most logical outcome, the easiest to attain. However, imo, the best people to ask about this sort of realistic type of situation are members of the military, especially those who have experience in close quarters engagements.
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