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#405378 - 08/25/08 03:32 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Neko456]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Nobody is discounting the dynamics of street fights compared to MMA fights. It goes without saying that more variables come into play in a street fight such as lighting, ground surface, multiple attackers, weapons, etc ... those are a given and we all understand that right? Good, we can get rid of these and then look at the fighters.

The reason this post was done by Chen is because in another thread he has claimed that he was a proficient street fighter never to have lost over countless of fights that by his watching Anderson Silva he saw holes in his game and that he believes he could beat him. It has been my opinion and shared by others that street fighting is not MMA fighting ... and we can all agree it is not.

While I don't doubt there are some excellent street fighters out there, and I know of some, none can dispute that stepping in the octagon/ring means you are going to be a good MMA fighter; quite the contrary. While a MMA fighter could fight easily enough in a street fight in the ring a street fighter would not fair as well. That is what this discussion is really about.

I see the point of the "ref" brought up all of the time and that is pointless. If the ref did not step in or if there was no ref in the ring and the fighters were left to their own accord then somebody would be seriously injured or dead; that is the only difference. And one cannot dispute that a MMA fighter trains and prepares for each fight at high levels where as a street fight is mostly an occurrence; random happening, or sought out as a routine for $hits and giggles by punks.

I can get in a street fight, you can get in a street fight, anybody can get into a street fight. How would we fair, it would depend on "variables" however our preparedness will be simple and quick. Where as not just anybody can become a MMA fighter and many that do don't fair well and very few make it to the show. And many could not train at the high levels to prepare; which is one of the hardest things to do; the fight is the easier of the two. Plus we can all agree that in a MMA fight both parties come to this prepared and have been mentally and physically preparing for it where as in a street fight perhaps only one really is looking for this to happen and that person may be the prepared out of the two.

While street fighting and MMA are two different things they are still fighting so have a common ground; the fight, once you take out all of the variables. Who is the better fighter? The one trained, the one more prepared, the one more conditioned, the one more experienced, the one for skilled, the one that won't panic ... and more times then not it will be the MMA fighter.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#405379 - 08/25/08 04:57 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: dandjurdjevic]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
dandjurdjevic,

I think you are touching on an important point here. In reality, a "fight" is often NOT a matter of one guy beating up on another guy. It is four or five guys beating up on one guy, a guy with a baseball bat smashing someone in the head from behind, a large, powerful man assaulting an elderly woman, etc. Unfortunately, these are not things we can really train for. If you are attacked by a group of people, you are in DEEP TROUBLE, period. It barely matters how much training you have when the odds against you are impossible.

What I was objecting to was the notion that since real fights cannot be fully simulated, no martial art is more realistic than any other. This is false. While MMA matches are not "real" fights, they are far closer than, say, TKD matches. These in turn are much closer to reality than aikido practice. It is the artist AND the art that matters.

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#405380 - 08/25/08 05:18 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Someone asks Bas Rutten a similar question here.
At the bottom of the page is an answer to an older similar question thats relevant too.

http://strictlysp.forumotion.com/qa-with-bas-rutten-f12/preference-t694.htm

Some might find it interesting.

A fight is a fight no matter how it starts.Once its physical its a fight.So a better all round trained fighter will always fair better.
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#405381 - 08/25/08 07:03 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: matxtx]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I see your point Dereck. I have misread Chen Zen's intent. A street fighter will be no match for a good MMA fighter.

And yes fileboy - MMA is more realistic than a TKD match, which is more "live" than aikido practice. Your point is well made also.
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#405382 - 08/25/08 07:11 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: matxtx]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Yes indeed - once you get to Bas' level of fighting and skill it all becomes one. So it is with all the best fighters.
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#405383 - 08/25/08 07:19 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: matxtx]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Good points by everyone so far. Dereck and Filboy have basically said what I was going to. No point in repeating them here.

dandjurdjevic, I don't think we're all that far apart in terms of philosophy. Hopefully I will have the time to actually read your blog one of these days. I don't have much free time which is partly why I asked for you to clarify your points HERE (and thanks for that).


-John

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#405384 - 08/26/08 04:57 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Dereck]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Nobody is discounting the dynamics of street fights compared to MMA fights. It goes without saying that more variables come into play in a street fight such as lighting, ground surface, multiple attackers, weapons, etc ... those are a given and we all understand that right? Good, we can get rid of these and then look at the fighters.

The reason this post was done by Chen is because in another thread he has claimed that he was a proficient street fighter never to have lost over countless of fights that by his watching Anderson Silva he saw holes in his game and that he believes he could beat him. It has been my opinion and shared by others that street fighting is not MMA fighting ... and we can all agree it is not.

While I don't doubt there are some excellent street fighters out there, and I know of some, none can dispute that stepping in the octagon/ring means you are going to be a good MMA fighter; quite the contrary. While a MMA fighter could fight easily enough in a street fight in the ring a street fighter would not fair as well. That is what this discussion is really about.

I see the point of the "ref" brought up all of the time and that is pointless. If the ref did not step in or if there was no ref in the ring and the fighters were left to their own accord then somebody would be seriously injured or dead; that is the only difference. And one cannot dispute that a MMA fighter trains and prepares for each fight at high levels where as a street fight is mostly an occurrence; random happening, or sought out as a routine for $hits and giggles by punks.

I can get in a street fight, you can get in a street fight, anybody can get into a street fight. How would we fair, it would depend on "variables" however our preparedness will be simple and quick. Where as not just anybody can become a MMA fighter and many that do don't fair well and very few make it to the show. And many could not train at the high levels to prepare; which is one of the hardest things to do; the fight is the easier of the two. Plus we can all agree that in a MMA fight both parties come to this prepared and have been mentally and physically preparing for it where as in a street fight perhaps only one really is looking for this to happen and that person may be the prepared out of the two.

While street fighting and MMA are two different things they are still fighting so have a common ground; the fight, once you take out all of the variables. Who is the better fighter? The one trained, the one more prepared, the one more conditioned, the one more experienced, the one for skilled, the one that won't panic ... and more times then not it will be the MMA fighter.




That may be one of the best posts I have ever read
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#405385 - 08/26/08 01:21 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Cord]
mdsj Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 8
I just want to say that I have really enjoyed this topic. There was a lot of talk about dynamics and how they alter the outcome. I think any form of self defense training is great, and I do enjoy MMA a lot. I do want to stress that there are martial arts out there that prepare you for the uncontrollable dynamics of a street fight, such as weapons, multiple attackers, fighting in a crowded area, etc. I feel that these arts are a must for anyone really interested in self defense, and are great tools to add to your toolbox for anyone including MMA fighters.
I especially think that its useful since many of the MMA schools are getting away from the true use of the martial arts they utilise which is self defense, and are teaching strictly how to "cage fight" and utilise the rules of the ring.
And trust me the way you train is the way you are going to fight, either in a ring or on the street.
This may be a little off topic, sorry. But the original topic is well covered.

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#405386 - 08/26/08 03:13 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: mdsj]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

And trust me the way you train is the way you are going to fight, either in a ring or on the street.




That statement is valid however has many flaws. Even if you train true self defense you always have to STOP before injuring your partner. You can never truly choke them out. You can never strike vital areas with any real force. You cannot bite. You cannot eye gouge. You cannot do anything beyond slight pressure. So to say how you train is how you will react then says anybody practicing self defense would STOP prior to inflicting any damage and that the only true training method is to destroy your partner so that you know how to really destroy them.

That of course we know is not true. We know that we do "understand" what is to happen next and to take it to the next level, and that goes for MMA fighters as well. In fact MMA fighters may have one up on everybody else because while most people train, MMA fighters go in the ring and pound on somebody to seriously hurt them and they only stop because the ref makes them stop. They at least get a feel to seriously injury their "opponent" while most of us don't have that luxury with our "partner".

The statement would be more valid if one were to say that if you practice crappy self defense or no defense then you ... well ... you are $hit out of luck because you are in over your head. But for anybody that does train in a valid type of fighting/self defense system, the transition of not injuring your partner to seriously hurting your opponent is only a simple transition. Remember, when training we most times are not angry or hate the person we are with. An opponent or assailant is out to hurt or kill you, that is the transition, that simple.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#405387 - 08/26/08 03:47 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Dereck]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Very true Dereck!!

Personally I hate everyone I train with or meet so I have no problem maiming or killing my partners. That leaves me less vulnerable on the str33ts!!!!
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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