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#405368 - 08/22/08 10:28 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I agree that "street fight" does not equate to what I have called "civilian defence".

We've debated this topic here: http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...part=1&vc=1

I think the consensus was the MMA could prepare you well for civilian defence since it involves a high degree of "live" training but that it does not equate to civilian defence as its scope and purpose is different (ie. it is training you to win in a combat sport).

While this difference might seem subtle to some, I think it has significant implications on how one approaches and deals with a conflict.

Civilian defence arts have techniques that are applicable for that purpose, but are often trained without any "live" aspect.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (08/22/08 10:40 PM)
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#405369 - 08/23/08 04:16 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
To me, the fight without the ref is going to be more dangerous. Theres too many variables, weapons, other attackers, enviromental hazards, and lastly the skill of the opponent. Like it was sai before, streetfighter is a loose term and it doesnt necessarily mean a drunkard or addict. People who mug people for a living for example, have learned alot about hurting people quickly to get what they want and get away.

Also, how many times have you sparred with a newbie and got hit with something you didnt expect because it wasnt done with "Skill" or it was something that isnt normally done by people with skill? Happens to alot of people. It seems like alot of higher level "Skilled" fighters have the same pace, an the same system of doing things.

Personally, Id rather have a ref watching my back. At least then I know Im going to walk away without any serious damage.
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#405370 - 08/23/08 09:30 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Also, how many times have you sparred with a newbie and got hit with something you didnt expect because it wasnt done with "Skill" or it was something that isnt normally done by people with skill?




Isn't that the truth!
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#405371 - 08/24/08 09:13 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Also, how many times have you sparred with a newbie and got hit with something you didnt expect because it wasnt done with "Skill" or it was something that isnt normally done by people with skill? Happens to alot of people. It seems like alot of higher level "Skilled" fighters have the same pace, an the same system of doing things.




There is a lot of truth in that statement. Yet that happens more with folks at a more intermediate experience level. After you have been around awhile and have seen everything you can see, the surprises don't come anymore. Again, there are only so many ways a human can hit and kick. Only so many angles and variables.

I would agree that street fighting has more variables and is more unpredictable. People will shoot you in real life. It's a different world, yet the two aren't as far apart as we might imagine, when looked at from a mechanistic point of view. Situations and circumstances vary, delivery systems will remain unchanged. The main difference from a street fight and mma is your strategy.

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#405372 - 08/24/08 10:46 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: Chen Zen]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
You touch on an important point, Chen Zen.

First of all, let's admit that while a MMA fight is not exactly a street fight, it is about as @#$% close as you can get within the bounds of safety and reason.

But the second point is that most so-called "street fighters"--i.e. untrained fighters--are very BAD fighters. In a way, MMA training is likely to overprepare you for dealing with these yahoos.

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#405373 - 08/24/08 07:29 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: fileboy2002]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

it is about as @#$% close as you can get




In terms of intensity, perhaps. In terms of dynamics (what actually happens, how it plays out, what tactics and techniques are used, etc.) - no. Not from what I've seen as a prosecutor.

This is my sole objection to this line of argument: "sports fighting is so close to attacks in the community it might as well be the same thing". This is a leap usually made by those who haven't experienced savage, unprovoked attacks (that result in criminal investigation and prosecution).

The "bounds of safety and reason" to which you refer are precisely what often distinguishes "real" fighting from "controlled real" fighting.

Note: this is very distinct from saying "MMA doesn't prepare you for defence" etc. - this is not what I'm saying.
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#405374 - 08/24/08 07:38 PM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: JKogas]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
[quoteAfter you have been around awhile and have seen everything you can see, the surprises don't come anymore. Again, there are only so many ways a human can hit and kick. Only so many angles and variables.




That's true. But every now and again I underestimate a beginner and cop an odd move (finger in the eye, stomp on the shin). It doensn't happy too often, but people doing "dorky" things that don't normally work (particularly in restricted technique sparring) can surprise me even after all this time.

I once grappled a beginner onto the floor onto his stomach (with me behind and to one side, about to get a full sleeper hold) when the beginner bent his back almost in half, and cracked me on the bridge of the nose with both his heels (he was hyper-flexible)... Odd things happen.
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#405375 - 08/25/08 06:44 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: dandjurdjevic]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

In terms of intensity, perhaps. In terms of dynamics (what actually happens, how it plays out, what tactics and techniques are used, etc.) - no. Not from what I've seen as a prosecutor.





Perhaps it would help you further extrapolated on this a bit. Help us to get a better picture of what you're trying to say.


Quote:


This is my sole objection to this line of argument: "sports fighting is so close to attacks in the community it might as well be the same thing". This is a leap usually made by those who haven't experienced savage, unprovoked attacks (that result in criminal investigation and prosecution).





The main difference being what? That they aren't first hiding in the bushes before they start fighting?

Mechanically speaking, what is different? No one is saying that MMA is a street fight. People here just understand that from a mechanistic perspective, that two guys duking it out is either going to resemble good or bad mma. For MY health and well-being, this should resemble good mma to the best of my capabilities.



Quote:


The "bounds of safety and reason" to which you refer are precisely what often distinguishes "real" fighting from "controlled real" fighting.

Note: this is very distinct from saying "MMA doesn't prepare you for defence" etc. - this is not what I'm saying.





So, you are essentially stating what's already been mentioned by others; that MMA is not street fighting. Gotcha. Honestly, I think you are underestimating the intelligence of most folks here (on second thought, that's probably not a bad idea). However some of us get it already.

However, so that we more clearly understand YOU and where you're coming from, try to give more of your point of view. All you're doing is saying that MMA is different than street fighting (which we already understand). What you're NOT doing is explaining why YOU see it that way.

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#405376 - 08/25/08 10:14 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: JKogas]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Perhaps it would help you further extrapolated on this a bit. Help us to get a better picture of what you're trying to say.




Well, apart from the fact that I'm all talked out on this issue after a 6000 word essay, lets see...

By "dynamics" I mean how things play out. I have previously given the example that if in a boxing match you knew Mike Tyson was going to bite your ear you wouldn't clinch him. This is not the same as saying "biting beats grapplers" - it means that this small detail could alter the dynamics of what you do - consciously and subconsciously.

Consider that if you suspect that the police are waiting at every street exit to a drinking venue, you're going to avoid driving home over the limit. The question won't be "how will you drive" or "what techniques will you employ to evade the police". Driving simply won't be in issue.

How does this translate to what I'm saying? Subtle things alter dynamics fundamentally. How are the dynamics of a particular street fight different from ring fight? It will depend on the individual situation. There is no single answer to this. All I can say with certainty is that the very predictable start and other controlled elements of a ring fight are not there. The surface is different, there are no rules or constraints (yes I know you get all het up about this word John, but bear with me), there are no gloves (however thin you might have them in your sport), the lighting is different - all of these factors, however small, play a role. You change one variable you necessarily get a different dynamic.

It might be what you have in your mind (eg. loss of temper, a different motivation to sports - ie. not wanting to be hurt rather than "winning" - or an awareness of a nearby loved one etc.). It might be the presence of multiple attackers/weapons/obstacles. It might be the lack of space. The list is endless. The ramifications are unpredictable. All we know with certainty from chaos theory is that there will be an effect on the resulting dynamic of how the whole fight "plays out" from start (a bit of aggro) to finish (one side being incapacitated or both sides being pulled away).

This is why I choose to focus on the one part of any fight that is a constant - in MMA or otherwise: what I call the "melee". More on that in a second.

Quote:

The main difference being what? That they aren't first hiding in the bushes before they start fighting?




I take this to be a factual question as to how fights actually differ from sport. I will do my best to answer it on the basis of my own observations of video evidence of real fighting. From what I've seen, there is usually no chance for squaring off or other preparation (if there is, this is not in the same ballpark as a civilian defence scenario). Some techniques (like thigh kicks) are rarely used (at least with any effect). There are no "closing the gap" issues - the gap is closed from the start. People usually don't get a chance to dodge, bob and weave. Think "toe to toe" fighting in any system and you have an idea. This is the "melee" range to which I have often referred.

Quote:

Mechanically speaking, what is different? No one is saying that MMA is a street fight.




No one is saying?

Chen Zen began this post with a simple question:

Quote:

Many of you talked about how different MMA was than a real self defense situation so I want to know what you base that on. To me theres only two differences, MMA fighting is going to have higher skill levels on average, and in self defense theres no rules or ref to save your a$$. So which is really going to more difficult?




Are these the only differences? Isn't this the same as putting forward the view that MMA and "real" fighting are indistinguishable except in relation to the skill and the ref saving your a$$?

Quote:

People here just understand that from a mechanistic perspective, that two guys duking it out is either going to resemble good or bad mma. For MY health and well-being, this should resemble good mma to the best of my capabilities.




Which part should resemble good MMA? I suspect you mean the actual "melee" portion. If so, I agree that for the period of the "melee" there is very little mechanical difference in many cases. This is not to say that some techniques aren't better in a "melee" than others (as opposed to moves that are useful in the "set-up" or "tactical entry" phase). This is probably where we disagree on (at least preferred) method. I would prefer the melee to look more like good TMA...

In short, I believe what I've called the previously called "melee" portion of any fight is as close as you get to parts of a real fight. In any competition this comprises only about 10-20% of the fight (taking away the squaring off, the "gap bridging" tactics, looking for openings, etc.). These are precisely the dynamics that I believe are fundamentally altered (while the wild "melee" remains largely the same in any fight - from MMA through to the brief and furious interchange of karate ippon shobu competition - even though we would both agree that the techniques are not very good for self-defence in the latter case).

Quote:

So, you are essentially stating what's already been mentioned by others; that MMA is not street fighting. Gotcha. Honestly, I think you are underestimating the intelligence of most folks here (on second thought, that's probably not a bad idea). However some of us get it already.




That's good that you get it. I didn't get that feeling from some of the posts. The "near as @#$%" is, to me, a minimisation of the dynamic shift to the point of ridicule. It suggests to me that "MMA = real fighting". I am more than prepared to say that MMA is very intense - the intensity can be far greater than a real fight and can be very good preparation for real fighting. But for me all but the brief interchanges in combat are not like a real fight and in some respects couldn't be further from it.

Quote:

What you're NOT doing is explaining why YOU see it that way.




I think I've done far more to explain my position on this forum and elsewhere than most people have or would. My articles on:

The "melee" range;

Evasion vs. blocking with evasion;

Staying in the "melee";

The karate 'kamae' or guard; and of course

Civilian defence systems,

just to name a few, set out a consistent and (I think) thoughtful, researched and readable account of how I approach this whole question.

You might disagree with my view and clearly it is bound to be imperfect. However it constitutes an honest and sincere effort at an analysis, based on my experience - not dogma or MMA bashing or "not getting it". It is not as confrontational as it seems to be interpreted (though it is clearly controversial - but who ever said we should all sit on the fence?). The fact that I argue against some common sports techniques is hardly surprising. If I didn't think there was a better way of doing X or Y, I wouldn't be doing what I do. However such technical disagreements are not a wholesale "put down" of obviously effective fighters, MMA or otherwise. And it is not some tired and ludicrous pre-UFC defence of inflexible TMA approaches. In case you hadn't noticed, I have a progressive approach to TMA that not everyone sees as "the right direction". At least I "put it out there". And I'm sure that I have overstated some arguments in the rush to expound a particular view.

So to summarise:

The question posed as I understood it was in essence: "how is MMA different from from streetfighting?" My answer is that it is different in the dynamics - a very unpredictable set of circumstances which, though subtle, affect what happens. I wasn't proposing to give a predictive analysis of how a real fight will play out - merely say that it is unpredictable. And that I consider this to be the reason that of all the prosecution videos I've watched very few looked like an MMA fight. Did they look a bit like parts of an MMA fight? Yes - they often looked a bit like the brief "melee" element of any fight for that matter.
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#405377 - 08/25/08 10:20 AM Re: Street fights and MMA [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree that street fighters can be a skilled fighters to some degree and they know how to hurt people quickly.

But a well trained MMAer at a prime fitness level is a unqiue physical speciment nearly professional they maybe the supreme athlet with stamina and arsenal that is superior to the Pro Boxer(not in punching range) imho. Though its my opinion that a MMAer without this fitness level or beginner that lack the indept training fighting as close as they fight can get hurt badly in a SF.

I also will like to say that there is a difference in being hit by a skilled striker and a unskilled sloopy punch. One you can shake off the other shakes you. Skilled striker = Street Fer or Trained Fer we know a solid haymaker can do as much damage as a good struck hook but one is easier to evade imho.

Street fighters can be skilled but rarely are they skilled at more then 1 r 2 ranges, though they can be fit they rarely have the fitness of a Golden glove boxer or wrestler unless they are one, and I'll add if they were anygood they'd be in a gym rather then street fighting.

A skilled MAAer is a harder fight then a Streetfighter not downing SFs abilities, he would be a harder fight then the average Boxer, TKDer, Kung-fu, Karate or just Judo/wrestler that doesn't train as hard. IMO.

Let me add this a S fighter on PCP is tougher then any MMAer or Trained fighter imagine fighting a near Terminator nothing you hit him with can hurt him, you may can choke him out if you can get in that close.

The intensity in the training and variety in preperation is different for MMAer who aim is to be a Pro.

But I believe MMA is safer because its a ring sport street fight is foreal anything goes weapons, buddies, no rules, no giving up or tapping out that just seems to intensify the a$$ whipping saying U give up. MAA is definitely safer.


Edited by Neko456 (08/25/08 10:32 AM)
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