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#404915 - 08/18/08 08:42 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Victor,

Am I right to assume this Sochin has no connection to Shotokan Sochin? (unless Funakoshi Junior really did a remodelling job on this kata!)

B.

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#404916 - 08/18/08 06:25 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Barad]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
B,

It's obvious the Aragaki no Sochin is closely related to the Shito Ryu Sochin kata (which Mabuni documented in 1938).

Shotokan's form with the same name is something different, regardless of the source.
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#404917 - 08/19/08 04:46 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Thanks Victor, I was looking at the Aragaki Sochin form and struggling to see anything from Shotokan Sochin in it.

Ben

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#404918 - 08/20/08 09:46 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Taken from an interview with a shaking crane master, full interview here: http://www.southerncranekungfu.com/content/?page_id=31

Quote:

Chen: In your opinion, what are the fundamental features of Shaking White Crane?

Master YouXiang Lin: Firstly, I would like to mention its Jin (&#21170;) or the internal martial energy. Shaking White Crane is also known as ZongHe in Fuzhou dialect. “Zong” means “to shake off”. In order to shake off your opponent, you need force.
The Jin in Shaking White Crane is a stream of powerful spring-like internal energy enabling you to shake off your opponent in the close range fight. When touched by this Shaking White Crane Jin, your opponent will have a feeling of being shocked by the lightening. Secondly, as a defensive southern style, White Crane highlights the defending techniques. Tradition has it that the white crane is an agile animal. If you splash a tub of water towards a crane, the crane will use its wings to flap off the water. No water will spatter and then wet the crane, not even a single drop. From this, people have drawn inspiration from the crane and have designed numerous fighting techniques through mimicking the movements of a crane. A White Crane practitioner should, like a real crane, leave no opportunity to the coming attack and avoid getting hurt.




There is some good video on this site as well.
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#404919 - 08/21/08 09:25 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Thanks Shonuff.

I have some understanding of this "shaking" principle. However my view is that all too often it is manifested by excess shaking of the body, when what is being imparted is a hydrostatic shock as I have discussed in this article: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/visible-power-vs-real-power.html and illustrated in the video embedded in that article.

"Lightning" is an apt, if grandiose, description of how this type of strike should feel (with a full power blow, of course) because the hydrostatic shock is transmitted to the nervous system. This may sound far-fetched to those who haven't been at the receiving end, but imagine a "winded feeling" from a blow on your chest - not on your solar plexus (which is how I've experienced it in sparring with my teacher).

But again, I think that the "shaking" feeling you might produce in your opponent is often being unnecessarily produced or replicated in the striker's body...

Hydrostatic shock techniques are indeed "internal", but the "external" shaking of the body is not.
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#404920 - 08/21/08 10:01 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

ydrostatic shock techniques are indeed "internal", but the "external" shaking of the body is not.





Word.

I wanted to ask though...Ed or someone posted this recently:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRqfYwhsQdQ

I'm wondering if there's a connection as the thread I saw earlier referenced the "double hip" in Shukokai, and I remember Shukokai kata looking about like the kata at the start of the thread. To be honest I don't still don't see how or why doing that with your hips would be neccessary for the power being shown in the Peter Consterdine video, but I'd figured it'd make for interesting conversation.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (08/21/08 10:18 PM)

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#404921 - 08/22/08 01:42 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
The double hip is just loading your hip (ie. not just taking it from where it is). In other words, Consterdine is doing the same thing as in the sochin kata video. This is good power generation, but you won't get that opportunity to pre-load in every instance.

You should practise a good hip load for power striking bags, pads, shields (or telephone books). But in kata? In the context of blocks?

Consterdine does it quite fast - but the millisecond it takes to do might be a millisecond too fast in a flowing, dynamic environment. Preloading your hip with every strike in a kata is not necessary.

Most karateka should be able (or should practise) using their hips. Confusing the static, ideal, environment for combat is another thing. So while I like what Consterdine is doing (and he has excellent hip use/power transfer), I don't think this is a template for kata practice.
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#404922 - 08/22/08 04:45 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA



Quote:


You should practise a good hip load for power striking bags, pads, shields (or telephone books). But in kata? In the context of blocks?





I know guys that can hit like this while standing one leg, and having none of the "typical" Karate hip swing at all, in fact we don't do the swingy hips at all anymore, and I don't miss it.

I'm sure if you've been exposed to some IMA people you've seen the kind of thing i'm talking about, that is my issue with this kind of movement, since I've met guys who hit like mac trucks using a totally different method than "body first then hands" shown in the kata vid, I don't see the benefit in it. I still think it encourages a big tell also.

I know the hip torque thing is endlessly debated, but personally i've dropped it.

I don't know if consterdine's movements look the same as the kata to me...


Out of curiousity, in your experience are there any CMA that use that kind of movement, or is it something that's unique to certain Karate schools?

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#404923 - 08/22/08 09:09 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
That "double hip" does not occur in IMA, although I've seen something like it in certain crane schools.
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#404924 - 08/24/08 03:37 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Yoshimasa Matsuda Shorin Ryu Karate Do http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tn9EpYc5pc
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