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#404935 - 08/25/08 08:34 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Dan, solely logically, it's a very big mistake to assume anything about a system that you haven't invested deep trianing into.

From friends who have studied similar approaches, no question it takes a tremendous effort to get those studies right. No doubt systems that don't use it are easier to acquire skill, but that doesn't mean those who follow that course can't do so either.

From a tactical point of view karate has never been about combat or fighting, but to destroy an attacker so there is no combat or fighting. The strategy and tactics required to use these techniques readily exist, but are in a different dimension than I would assume you're using (or I for that manner).

Now any video tape really doesn't show much or what a system of study really is.

The Aragaki No Sochin, while skilled, is still a senior doing a walk through, IMO. Very similarily would be Shimabuku Tatsuo's walk through in SunNuSu kata from 1966. The stance is a little different of course, and the 'snapping' aspect of the punch a little different too, but your comments about it's use are not exactly correct.

The light snapping punch of Isshinryu, performed that way but trained very differently is my primary tool of choice to drop Goju karate-ka (and many other styles). Of course, perhaps I hit a little harder than what is shown. And there are no rules about application. For example I see the opening row of techniques for Aragaki No Sochin and/or Isshinryu SunNuSu (or Seisan for that manner) as having dozens of different answers of use, nad pratice and teach all of them.

Having found out the hard way many years ago I try hard never to assume and work out the tactical choices they may be using.

Well each will believe as they will. I an older and much slower individual work hard to get it done after all.

pleasantly,


Edited by Victor Smith (08/25/08 08:36 PM)
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#404936 - 08/25/08 09:29 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I see your point Victor.

If I am assuming anything, it is that the Aragaki sochin hip use is the same as our hip use (and hence that I have invested sufficient time to comment). It certainly looks like our hip use. I have trained to do what the gentleman on the video is doing (if I am interpreting his moves correctly). We isolate our hips a lot in practice - both horizontal plane of movement and 45 degree angle plane movement.

However I don't believe in employing static hip loading in the dynamic context that is kata (at least not on every technique). The closest I would come to this sochin would be the video you posted of Tomari rohai - where you will note the hip loading (particularly on the second and third thrusts) occurs during (and as part of) the step up; it does not occur in a stationary posture. And it is not used in the subsequent techniques since the same "contextual opportunity" for hip loading does not arise.

It is true that techniques have dozens of different uses. Perhaps my concern is that the Aragaki sochin emphasis on hip loading is detracting from some of those uses (where the "more contextual" use of hips in Tomari rohai doesn't appear to have the same level of "dissociation" from a dynamic context)...

As I said at the outset, I admire the sochin kata practitioner's ability, however I am not convinced that it is a technically optimal method of kata practise.

However I might be wrong in my assumptions about what it is the Aragaki sochin moves are all about and I shall accept your advice not to assume too much.
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#404937 - 08/26/08 10:36 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Ed_Morris]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Ed,

Hitting hard is surely key but the other things you mention are also useful and sometimes integral and not mutually exclusive alternatives. The eye rake may set up or distract to allow the hard, accurate punch or for that matter the groin grab... Hitting hard is a vital skill. Hitting hard somewhere particularly vulnerable is even better IMO.

Ben

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#404938 - 08/26/08 01:37 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: shoshinkan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

and perhaps we should all learn not to de-rail threads in the kata section..............




Just ignore them then ya weiner.
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#404939 - 08/26/08 01:40 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Barad]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Ed,

Hitting hard is surely key but the other things you mention are also useful and sometimes integral and not mutually exclusive alternatives. The eye rake may set up or distract to allow the hard, accurate punch or for that matter the groin grab... Hitting hard is a vital skill. Hitting hard somewhere particularly vulnerable is even better IMO.

Ben




Hard and accurate, indeed!

I suppose a devastating blow through the earlobe wouldn't do much,lol.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#404940 - 08/27/08 05:00 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: BrianS]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Brian,

I am missing your point on the earlobe I think.

To elaborate on what I saying before: IMO hitting a live, moving target hard and accurately can be very difficult. The eye rake can, for me at least, be the set up, the distraction, the inducer of a stopping mind or whatever you want to call it that allows the hard strike to be deployed accurately. Hence the techniques Ed was talking about work usefully together, not as alternatives.

Ben

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#404941 - 08/27/08 09:52 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Barad]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I simply meant that it is ineffective to hit a target hard if it isn't a good target.
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#404942 - 08/27/08 10:40 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: BrianS]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Brian,

Thanks-I agree obviously.

Ben

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#404943 - 08/31/08 01:21 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Barad]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
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#404944 - 08/31/08 06:32 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Nice article Dan, I find myself in agreement.

Also Macyoung's thingy on power generation is imho, light years ahead of alot of the stuff written on the subject, and shares alot in common with the kind of things i've learned training with Kris Wilder, I prefer his model to the swingy hip thing in general.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (08/31/08 06:36 PM)

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