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#404925 - 08/25/08 01:50 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
one thing people might misunderstand - the double hip is firstly a training method not an end goal. the idea is, start with exagurated movement to get the principle and structure/timing and feeling of the impact, then the student (if guided) works to get the movement 'smaller' as they get more efficient without comprimising the delivery.

instead, what we typically see is the exaggurated movement being taught as the end goal. same with the Matsubayashi whip: many (it seems) are taught towards getting the exaggurated movement and then not guided/progressed beyond that. Thats because more than not, people start teaching prematurely.


The goal is as little setup as possible without loosing the power of the technique. loading a hip takes too long for close distance and is a telegraph at longer distance.

not only does it seem similar to crane power delivery, but the only difference I can tell, is in the training method. The end results are towards the same: maximum power transfer thru minimal movement.

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#404926 - 08/25/08 02:52 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Ed_Morris]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I agree that the "double hip" is a training method. I can see its use against shields and bags and in other "static" environments.

However kata is, to me, a tool for grooving combinations in a dynamic setting. I think it is very unlikely that you'll ever do a "double hip" in combat. Rather your hip should be set up by a previous parry etc. - and you'll go from whatever position your hip happens to be in (rather than some ideal "power" position).

In this respect your hip use is no different from any other "loading" - eg. loading arms for punches and strikes, or legs for kicks. You should learn to move so that you end up in the right (or at least an appropriate) position. You wouldn't artificially load your hip, no more than you would interrupt a flow of movement to load your punch into a chamber. Instead, just as chambers on one arm should take place while the other is in action, so your hip should load during the preceding movement.

Accordingly this "double hip" strikes me as a "wobble" that is akin to being "wrong-footed" in sparring - it cuts against your flow of movement in an attempt to create an "ideal" power load.

Simultaneously it assumes your hip is not already sufficiently loaded for the required technique. Karate is a civilian defence system; ie. it has the central aim of "not getting hit". It is not a sport where you're looking to "win" - perhaps by scoring a "knockout punch". A civilian defence system doesn't try to maximise its power on every single technique. It focuses on safety first.

In the case of sochin kata, the punches from neko ashi dachi are akin to the opening punches in goju's seisan - they are "snap-like" punches - not full hip "power" blows. Any attempt to force them into the "power" mould misconceives their function and robs the student of practising very useful, situation-appropriate self-defence skills (ie. kizami zuki). The fact that neko ashi dachi is not usually seen as a platform for the delivery of power punches (except where it is used to lunge into zenkutsu dachi) is, I feel, supportive of, and consistent with, my argument.

So rather than being a development of karate, I see this version of sochin as tangential at best.
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#404927 - 08/25/08 01:11 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
one of the core uses (as i understand it) of the double hip was to enable a really strong reverse punch to be fired from the karate stance and with one hand forward and one hand towards the hip, often with the front hand dealing with something incoming or diverting etc etc. (mainly a sport application).

it's a good method for that, I agree it is often exagerated and not progressed as I think it should be,

however many people now use it as it is a simple and effective way to generate alot of power, and indeed for many techniques.

Im not as keen as I used to be however, my karate and main reasons for training have changed significantly - no longer is a really powerful reverse punch, well that important.

But rest assured there are many that use this method and can hit like a train. you just might see it coming.......
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#404928 - 08/25/08 02:22 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
in my opinion, hitting hard without winding up or telegraphing, is key. it doesn't matter which technique you use to train that - the principle carries to all other strikes.

unless of course you guys aren't concerned with being able to hit hard or not, and just concentrate on eye rakes, pressure points and groin pulls.

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#404929 - 08/25/08 03:55 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Ed_Morris]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
ed, some of us train shotokan, punching and kicking is all i know how to do, lol.
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#404930 - 08/25/08 04:08 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Ed_Morris]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

in my opinion, hitting hard without winding up or telegraphing, is key. it doesn't matter which technique you use to train that - the principle carries to all other strikes.




I agree, it should be a fundamental skill applying to everything you do, which is why I don't get why someone would train kata with big loopy movements like those in Victors first video, especially since you don't need them to generate power.

I guess in the end since it's not how I've trained I just don't get it. I'm sure there is much more to it than what i'm seeing.

Quote:


unless of course you guys aren't concerned with being able to hit hard or not, and just concentrate on eye rakes, pressure points and groin pulls.





Why even bother with those, no touch knockouts are where it's at....no effort to defeat someone, what can beat that


Edited by Zach_Zinn (08/25/08 04:13 PM)

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#404931 - 08/25/08 05:14 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
hitting hard is of course an important element in what we do Ed,

it just isn't given perhaps the significance alot of other karate ryu give it.

There are equally important topics like not getting hit to much and hitting several times for the desired effect.

But you knew that

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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#404932 - 08/25/08 06:37 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Zach_Zinn]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
The next time you KO me via pm Zach!!!!!!!!



1. Learn how to hit freakin hard.
2. Learn not to get hit.
3. Learn not to waste your time with silly "old" kata with dorky moves in place of real training.
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#404933 - 08/25/08 07:01 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: BrianS]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
and perhaps we should all learn not to de-rail threads in the kata section..............
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#404934 - 08/25/08 07:31 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Ed_Morris]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

in my opinion, hitting hard without winding up or telegraphing, is key. it doesn't matter which technique you use to train that - the principle carries to all other strikes.




I suppose this is my point. The "loading" used in this method - while reasonably quick - is an interruption to flow of movement that constitutes telegraphing or winding up. Not good for combat imo. I've never seen anyone apply such a double hip in sparring, competition or (for that matter) in a street confrontation.

Quote:

unless of course you guys aren't concerned with being able to hit hard or not, and just concentrate on eye rakes, pressure points and groin pulls.





You forgot internet kyusho/kiaijutsu (via forum or pm).
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