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#404895 - 08/15/08 08:06 AM Aragaki no Sochin
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Of all of the Sochin kata I've seen, this one is what I find most interesting.

Aragaki Sochin Aragaki Isumu, Yuchoku Higa, Tode Sakagawa,Bushi Sokon Matsumura, Anko Itotsu, Chosin Chibana,Yuchoku Higa, SHORIN-RYU KYUDOKAN, Okinawa Karate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBsrAnJGTAU
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#404896 - 08/15/08 08:54 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
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Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
why?
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#404897 - 08/15/08 11:00 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: student_of_life]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Why,

The first reason is the way koshi is being used to drive his techniques. I've just spent some time reviewing other Sochin variations and they're not doing that.

Second I like the technique sequences not found in other versions, I understand their potential and see the value.

Sochin isn't in my system, but watching this performance makes me wish I could study with this instructor.
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#404898 - 08/15/08 02:23 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
student_of_life Offline
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the use of the hips to generate power like that can produce some suprising ammounts of shock, and it seems to be the higher level of physical skill that asian arts look to gain through lots of differents kinds of training. its the root of bruce lee's one inch punch demostration. at least thats how i see it.

the guys hips in the video seem to be moving alot, as training progresses the ammount of movement you need to make to produce the same kind of power should get smaller and smaller while power stays at a decent level. do you think that in application this amount of movement is practical?

dose there still need to be as much "movement" or do the muscels simply contract against and with eachother to generate momentum and shocking power? so the result looks like an extension of the arm with no "shivering" of the body or hips.

i can say for myself that i do train this kind of short power generation, but in application i become more a blunt instrument than the gracefull karateka i should be.
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#404899 - 08/15/08 06:39 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: student_of_life]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Now you're addressing the centrral conundrum of video. Was the performance the 'teaching version' or the 'advanced version', for I agree in such training the goal at higher levels is to internalize those movements.

As he was being filmed I expect it may have been the teaching version (similar to the Wu Slow form being the teaching version and the Wu Fast form the final version of Wu Tai Chi Chaun).

Still that could be advanced even with the speed, for there is a multiplicity of methods of execution. Among the more advanced is recognizing speed is not the issue, timing is, and if you have the timing to control the point through which their limb must move, you have no need to ever increase your execution speed from your normal practice.

More conundrums.
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#404900 - 08/15/08 07:37 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
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Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Why,

The first reason is the way koshi is being used to drive his techniques. I've just spent some time reviewing other Sochin variations and they're not doing that.





I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and say that while the kata looked generally nice, training to punch with that kind of "koshi" movement is nothing short of a wicked, wicked telegraph, and it seems to me to be training a very bad habit. I don't think you ever need that kind of movement to produce power personally.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (08/15/08 07:40 PM)

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#404901 - 08/15/08 10:22 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Thanks for posting the video Victor. It is interesting indeed and I respect your admiration for this performance. Many of my senior colleagues (who I esteem) use this type of hip movement (which I believe is primarily a legacy of Yuchuku Higa's influence - is this Higa performing the kata?).

However my personal view coincides with Zach's. I find that it is an overuse of the hips, telegraphing every move. Not every punch/strike/block has to be done with full body power, nor were they intended that way imho.

While the performer does not "shake" overly after the movement, many of Higa's student's and their "descendants" now continue to shake long after the strike/block etc. has been completed. This is not only wasteful/uneconomical in terms of energy, but it is also pointless imo (and I know many "shaking crane" people who disagree).

Most pertinently, I don't see any similar movements in the internal arts which I believe are technically an advancement on the external arts (though not necessarily more effective). The concept of hip use is there, yes. But this is integrated into a seamless continuum, as it should be in karate. Here the hip use cuts the dynamic flow into distinct "packets".

One practitoner I know and admire told me that when he went to train with Morio Higaonna, Higaonna admonished him "for using his hips". I think Higaonna was admonishing his inappropriate or uneconomical use of hips - after all, Higaonna can't be said to lack hip use and power...

I respect your view and stand to be corrected, but to my taste this line of development is "barking up the wrong tree". I could easily perform the kata in this fashion, having a fairly good awareness of my hips and how to use them. Yet I choose not to, nor would I get my students to inculcate this habit.

My opinion, for what it's worth...
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#404902 - 08/15/08 11:12 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Dan,

YouTube states this is Aragaki Sochin by Aragaki Isumu, a descendent of the Aragaki Seisho, performing the Aragaki No Sochin. He studied with Higa Yuchoku of Shorinryu. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBsrAnJGTAU

Several systems utilize similar movement such as Kashiba Juku, as shown by Katsuhiko Shinzato on Naifanchi kata at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DEVYxsihlE This system descended from Matbubayshi Ryu and more videos on their technique can be found at http://www.okinawabbtv.com/culture/karate/matsubayashi/index.htm George Donahue who contributes to FightingArts.com is in this system, as is Charles Goodin (of the Hawaii Martial Arts Museum) among others.

The Gohaku-kai also specializes in this movement as in the brief demonstration of Tomari Rohai shown at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIBgQj_Hgdk . A friend who trained in this system for years tells me this style of movement is very difficult go get down correctly.

As primarily an Isshirnyu stylist this is not how I practice, but from friends Iíve come to understand what they are doing. The larger movements are those for beginners, seniorís using this technique internalize the movement and it is not discernable. I do not see these videoís as examples of senior movement, rather seniorís showing the basics.

Personally I maintain even what is shown is still perfectly workable, itís a matter of timing and set up, not apparent in the plain kata. One of the remarkable Truthís in the martial arts is that diametrically opposing points of view still may be equally effective.

From my perspective as a Yang Tai Chi practitioner for quite a few years there is a similarity in the movement. What I find quite interesting is that Wu Tai Chi Chaun (the Wu which is a Yang derivative) follows as similar teaching template. The Wu Tai Chi Chaun teaching form is more complex and uses larger movement, but when the student progresses to the Wu Fast Form (fast is a relative term) the movements are reduced and the larger movements are more internalized in the faster, less complex movements. Really too difficult to explain. Here is a sample of the Wu fast form. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmf0FB1kxBg

Also for reference just to make the point:
Wu Yinghua Slow form
01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqqkbetLPIk
02 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-40n_syhMTQ
Wu Yinghwa demonstrating Wu Taiji long form. Wu Yinghwa was the daughter of Wu Jianquan, co-founder of Wu Style Taiji. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjiBFLobNt4

As in most systems you have to give yourself to the training, and nobody can do everything.

I admire the Aragaki Isumu performance and would find such study interesting, yet that time has passed me by.

Pleasantly,
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#404903 - 08/15/08 11:27 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Hmm, for me it's not really a question of whether or not the movement is internalized or apparent... I simply think it's a bad way to train your body period, that hip twisty thing is wholly unnecessary in my own experience (I didn't always feel this way though) and I don't have a favorable opinion of it, whether internalized or shown.

After seeing the difference between this and a more "internal" if you'll forgive my use of the term way of training power, I just don't see any merit to these kind of body mechanics, it's simply too sloppy and you are "training in" the terrible of habit of displaying your entire intention before your fist even thrusts forward.

I fully recognize maybe i'm missing something, but if one's kata is suppposed to reflect one's application and usage it seems like you are giving alot to your opponent with this kind of movement.

Out of curiousity Victor, where is any form of Taiji similar to this? I don't have alot of exposure, but my father studied Chen for some time and I feel I can say with some confidence that this kind of movement is almost diametrically opposed to the Chen stuff I saw from him...in fact there was no discernible swingy-hippy thing at all, just a connected body moving as a unit that hit like a ton of bricks.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (08/15/08 11:35 PM)

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#404904 - 08/15/08 11:30 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"Now you're addressing the centrral conundrum of video. Was the performance the 'teaching version' or the 'advanced version', for I agree in such training the goal at higher levels is to internalize those movements."

what ever the purpose was, it's good techniue that i see. and your absoultly right about the timing part, i've seen well timed "slow" kicks knock people all over the place before they can throw a fast punch.

my personal opinion of this kind of training has a place as a kind of skill and atribute building exercise. if someone wants to spend time on it and emphasize it, i don't see it making them a machine of hand to hand combat any time soon.

damn conundrums...
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