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#404905 - 08/16/08 06:04 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Zach,

The only tai chi I will comment on is my own yang practice. We do use the rotation of the hip with everything, but in a different time frame than the compression shown in Aragaki Sochin,

Yang covers a lot of different speeds of execution and at full speed my rollback/press is very similar to his movement ability, imo, a very small and very fast execution.

I do not believe this demonstration of koshi is the only answer, but I can't deny it works either. It is a very long term study, IMO. In my tai chi practice I didn't begin to get it till almost 20 years of practice had passed.

Many do not wish to accept what long term practice can yield, which is fine, but not accepting it does't mean it's not there either.

It's a complex MA world after all.
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#404906 - 08/16/08 08:45 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Hi Victor

The level of hip control shown by the practitioner is indeed high. Many karateka cannot do this. The movement however is central to my karate, so I've had many years of getting used to it.

My objection isn't to the hip use per se, but the overuse for each technique. It is, in my view, contextually wrong.

Yuchuku Higa was renknowned for his powerful hip use and all his "descendants" carry this. I can't help but feel it is an over-emphasis.

I have practised Yang style taijiquan for years. I now study Chen Pan-Ling which is a fusion of Chen, Yang, the 2 Wu styles and Hao - with some xingyi and bagua thrown in.

I also study the xingyi and bagua of Chen Pan-Ling.

My sister and brother-in-law are long time Chen practitioners. My brother-in-law is also a Wu practitioner.

Now it is true that internal arts use the hip. But nowhere in any style of taiji that I am familiar with is the hip used in the same context as this sochin kata. The hip is loaded - but generally in, or just before, a parry. The hip then closes and the technique is delivered. There is no "dead" or "disconnected" time. And there is no shaking. The body moves as a seamless whole.

Now I might not understand the reason for this emphasis, but nothing in my experience makes this understandable from an internal perspective. It is a very external method, if anything imho.
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#404907 - 08/16/08 10:12 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"It is a very external method, if anything imho."

what do you mean by external method? at this stage or level or training the movement is large and visible, but this kind of training is a requirement to make it smaller and more "internal", if you want to call it that. the goal of alot of traditional karate people is to start with big motions and refine them into samll, with next to no movement, just impact power.

i'll never understand the whole external and internal thing.... i guess i'll just go hit my heavybag, lol
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#404908 - 08/16/08 10:33 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin" [Re: student_of_life]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I'm a karate man, so I'm not being critical of external arts. I'm making the observation that this hip use is not "internal" in terms of categorisation.

Karate is an external art in terms of its biodynamics. It is very different from the 3 principal internal arts of taiji, bagua and xingyi.

Where external arts rely on getting power first and refining technique to maximum economy later (ie. to a point where you are completely relaxed during movement and only tense the necessary muscles at the necessary times), the internal arts start the other way around. They go for relaxed, seamless movement and maximum economy, then add power.

In the end, you should get to the same thing. However the tools for building skill manifest very differently. Karate has very "strong" punching; taiji etc. look very soft. Both can be just as fast.

You can use some of the internal methods of movement and incorporate them into karate. However this example of sochin would not be one. The movement is powerful - but it is not "economical" in terms of energy use. It might still be highly effective - but it is not "internal" in the sense of classification/categorisation.

See http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/05/internal-vs-external-martial-arts.html.
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#404909 - 08/16/08 11:09 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin" [Re: dandjurdjevic]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
i don't want to derail victors thread, but i'd like to talk with you about this some more, so i'll pm you.
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#404910 - 08/16/08 01:41 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin" [Re: student_of_life]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I'll add another thing to the mix: blocks/deflections/whatever don't work correctly unless you use your hands first, using your body to move your hand against a commited attack is
bad.

I know this flies in the face of what alot of Karate teaches, but after being shown a different way of doing things, I really think that the typical "body moves then hands" thing you see in alot of kata is training a bad habit, and particularly with a defensive movement not moving your hands first is a bad idea.

Quote:



In the end, you should get to the same thing. However the tools for building skill manifest very differently. Karate has very "strong" punching; taiji etc. look very soft. Both can be just as fast.




Exactly...however I personally take issue with the mechanics in the video, and i'm not convinced that they will somehow become more efficient over time, since from my point of view they start out by building bad habits.

I don't mean to be insulting to anyone who trains this way, this is similar to the way I learned to do things in my Shorin training years ago, since studying with the people I am now my opinions have changed alot on this stuff and it just doesn't sit right with me anymore.

Why not just learn good mechanics right off the bat?

You would never use chudan-uke as an example the way he does in the kata against an attack (I hope), so why practice it that way in kata?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (08/16/08 01:48 PM)

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#404911 - 08/16/08 02:07 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin" [Re: Zach_Zinn]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"Why not just learn good mechanics right off the bat?"

sounds reasonable, lol. im always trying to think up why karate works the way it dose, and why shouldn't i just go learn boxing and other stuff. the best i can come up with is this: think of preforming kata in this way as a kind of "suplement exercise", it in no way replaces other forms of combat training. its just there to let the student get a feel for how he can generate power from the ground up while not having to rely on making a big ass swing of his arm to get power. you'd obvisouly have to follow it up with bag and mit work and sparing and aliveness. its just one tiny aspect of training, that some people have taken a liking too and like to emphasize. the kind of thing that if i had to spend more then 10 minuites on at a time i would get tired of and go join a boxing gym if i had to do it, lol.


"I'll add another thing to the mix: blocks/deflections/whatever don't work correctly unless you use your hands first, using your body to move your hand against a commited attack is bad."

ok, yeah your right, but try thinking about this. your hands won't move fast unless your core is transfering the strength from your legs properly. also, when your hands reach your opponents limbs you better have a solid core to support your arms, otherwise your arms will be knocked out of the way and you'll get hit. you do it anyway, the video is just building on it.

and like victor said, timing of the movement is more important than the physical speed.
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#404912 - 08/16/08 02:29 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin" [Re: student_of_life]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


ok, yeah your right, but try thinking about this. your hands won't move fast unless your core is transfering the strength from your legs properly. also, when your hands reach your opponents limbs you better have a solid core to support your arms, otherwise your arms will be knocked out of the way and you'll get hit. you do it anyway, the video is just building on it.

and like victor said, timing of the movement is more important than the physical speed.





If you are using the right mechanics the "core strength" thing is there for everything, you don't need to make your hands move secondarily for it. Moving your hands first is always faster than not imo. So it's not "speed" per se i'm talking about, it's not about fast twitch movement, it's about what the opponent can see, and how long it takes you to perform actions. I'm only harping on it because in some circles this kind of movement is taken as gospel, and i'm thoroughly convinced now that it ingraines bad habits, because I am personally still unlearning them

Just have someone volley a few punches at you semi to full speed, try to deflect them with chudan-uke or whatever, first try it like this with the hip twisty thing, then try it just with your hand first and no hip swingy thing.

I can predict which one will work better for you.

Same thing with punching someone, if you try it with this movement, you have a giant tell that shakes half your body everytime you punch. I really think kata practice should reflect usage, and i'm assuming that on some level this doesn't, that's why i'm not confortable with it.

Even outside of a "live" setting you could take application bits or yakusoku kumites and try them with these mechanics, my guess is the results wouldn't be good if your partner was actually trying to penetrate you defenses.

It would be interesting if we had someone on here who uses theis method to comment on it....anyone out there?

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#404913 - 08/16/08 05:54 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin" [Re: Zach_Zinn]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
whilst I appriciate the dedication and skill required to perform a kata at this level I personally see little 'function' in it.

Granted alot of kata with exagerated (often by highly skillfull sensei) power generation methods are to demonstrate the principles that the sensei wishes to emphasise (as a teching aid), not for me mind as it is clearly form led over function.

But then again im not very deep...................
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#404914 - 08/16/08 10:21 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin" [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Shorin teaches eyes hands feet hands. This helps you get into position. Each technique has combinations such as a deflection and a strike or two strikes. You must look at the preceding technique to fully understand the following technique in several cases. A hand left out before a punch can be a deflection and give you time to obtain superior posotion to launch your strike.
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