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#404895 - 08/15/08 08:06 AM Aragaki no Sochin
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Of all of the Sochin kata I've seen, this one is what I find most interesting.

Aragaki Sochin Aragaki Isumu, Yuchoku Higa, Tode Sakagawa,Bushi Sokon Matsumura, Anko Itotsu, Chosin Chibana,Yuchoku Higa, SHORIN-RYU KYUDOKAN, Okinawa Karate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBsrAnJGTAU
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#404896 - 08/15/08 08:54 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
student_of_life Offline
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why?
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#404897 - 08/15/08 11:00 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: student_of_life]
Victor Smith Offline
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Why,

The first reason is the way koshi is being used to drive his techniques. I've just spent some time reviewing other Sochin variations and they're not doing that.

Second I like the technique sequences not found in other versions, I understand their potential and see the value.

Sochin isn't in my system, but watching this performance makes me wish I could study with this instructor.
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#404898 - 08/15/08 02:23 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
student_of_life Offline
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the use of the hips to generate power like that can produce some suprising ammounts of shock, and it seems to be the higher level of physical skill that asian arts look to gain through lots of differents kinds of training. its the root of bruce lee's one inch punch demostration. at least thats how i see it.

the guys hips in the video seem to be moving alot, as training progresses the ammount of movement you need to make to produce the same kind of power should get smaller and smaller while power stays at a decent level. do you think that in application this amount of movement is practical?

dose there still need to be as much "movement" or do the muscels simply contract against and with eachother to generate momentum and shocking power? so the result looks like an extension of the arm with no "shivering" of the body or hips.

i can say for myself that i do train this kind of short power generation, but in application i become more a blunt instrument than the gracefull karateka i should be.
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#404899 - 08/15/08 06:39 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: student_of_life]
Victor Smith Offline
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Now you're addressing the centrral conundrum of video. Was the performance the 'teaching version' or the 'advanced version', for I agree in such training the goal at higher levels is to internalize those movements.

As he was being filmed I expect it may have been the teaching version (similar to the Wu Slow form being the teaching version and the Wu Fast form the final version of Wu Tai Chi Chaun).

Still that could be advanced even with the speed, for there is a multiplicity of methods of execution. Among the more advanced is recognizing speed is not the issue, timing is, and if you have the timing to control the point through which their limb must move, you have no need to ever increase your execution speed from your normal practice.

More conundrums.
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#404900 - 08/15/08 07:37 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

Why,

The first reason is the way koshi is being used to drive his techniques. I've just spent some time reviewing other Sochin variations and they're not doing that.





I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and say that while the kata looked generally nice, training to punch with that kind of "koshi" movement is nothing short of a wicked, wicked telegraph, and it seems to me to be training a very bad habit. I don't think you ever need that kind of movement to produce power personally.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (08/15/08 07:40 PM)

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#404901 - 08/15/08 10:22 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Thanks for posting the video Victor. It is interesting indeed and I respect your admiration for this performance. Many of my senior colleagues (who I esteem) use this type of hip movement (which I believe is primarily a legacy of Yuchuku Higa's influence - is this Higa performing the kata?).

However my personal view coincides with Zach's. I find that it is an overuse of the hips, telegraphing every move. Not every punch/strike/block has to be done with full body power, nor were they intended that way imho.

While the performer does not "shake" overly after the movement, many of Higa's student's and their "descendants" now continue to shake long after the strike/block etc. has been completed. This is not only wasteful/uneconomical in terms of energy, but it is also pointless imo (and I know many "shaking crane" people who disagree).

Most pertinently, I don't see any similar movements in the internal arts which I believe are technically an advancement on the external arts (though not necessarily more effective). The concept of hip use is there, yes. But this is integrated into a seamless continuum, as it should be in karate. Here the hip use cuts the dynamic flow into distinct "packets".

One practitoner I know and admire told me that when he went to train with Morio Higaonna, Higaonna admonished him "for using his hips". I think Higaonna was admonishing his inappropriate or uneconomical use of hips - after all, Higaonna can't be said to lack hip use and power...

I respect your view and stand to be corrected, but to my taste this line of development is "barking up the wrong tree". I could easily perform the kata in this fashion, having a fairly good awareness of my hips and how to use them. Yet I choose not to, nor would I get my students to inculcate this habit.

My opinion, for what it's worth...
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#404902 - 08/15/08 11:12 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Victor Smith Offline
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Hi Dan,

YouTube states this is Aragaki Sochin by Aragaki Isumu, a descendent of the Aragaki Seisho, performing the Aragaki No Sochin. He studied with Higa Yuchoku of Shorinryu. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBsrAnJGTAU

Several systems utilize similar movement such as Kashiba Juku, as shown by Katsuhiko Shinzato on Naifanchi kata at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DEVYxsihlE This system descended from Matbubayshi Ryu and more videos on their technique can be found at http://www.okinawabbtv.com/culture/karate/matsubayashi/index.htm George Donahue who contributes to FightingArts.com is in this system, as is Charles Goodin (of the Hawaii Martial Arts Museum) among others.

The Gohaku-kai also specializes in this movement as in the brief demonstration of Tomari Rohai shown at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIBgQj_Hgdk . A friend who trained in this system for years tells me this style of movement is very difficult go get down correctly.

As primarily an Isshirnyu stylist this is not how I practice, but from friends I’ve come to understand what they are doing. The larger movements are those for beginners, senior’s using this technique internalize the movement and it is not discernable. I do not see these video’s as examples of senior movement, rather senior’s showing the basics.

Personally I maintain even what is shown is still perfectly workable, it’s a matter of timing and set up, not apparent in the plain kata. One of the remarkable Truth’s in the martial arts is that diametrically opposing points of view still may be equally effective.

From my perspective as a Yang Tai Chi practitioner for quite a few years there is a similarity in the movement. What I find quite interesting is that Wu Tai Chi Chaun (the Wu which is a Yang derivative) follows as similar teaching template. The Wu Tai Chi Chaun teaching form is more complex and uses larger movement, but when the student progresses to the Wu Fast Form (fast is a relative term) the movements are reduced and the larger movements are more internalized in the faster, less complex movements. Really too difficult to explain. Here is a sample of the Wu fast form. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmf0FB1kxBg

Also for reference just to make the point:
Wu Yinghua Slow form
01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqqkbetLPIk
02 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-40n_syhMTQ
Wu Yinghwa demonstrating Wu Taiji long form. Wu Yinghwa was the daughter of Wu Jianquan, co-founder of Wu Style Taiji. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjiBFLobNt4

As in most systems you have to give yourself to the training, and nobody can do everything.

I admire the Aragaki Isumu performance and would find such study interesting, yet that time has passed me by.

Pleasantly,
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#404903 - 08/15/08 11:27 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Hmm, for me it's not really a question of whether or not the movement is internalized or apparent... I simply think it's a bad way to train your body period, that hip twisty thing is wholly unnecessary in my own experience (I didn't always feel this way though) and I don't have a favorable opinion of it, whether internalized or shown.

After seeing the difference between this and a more "internal" if you'll forgive my use of the term way of training power, I just don't see any merit to these kind of body mechanics, it's simply too sloppy and you are "training in" the terrible of habit of displaying your entire intention before your fist even thrusts forward.

I fully recognize maybe i'm missing something, but if one's kata is suppposed to reflect one's application and usage it seems like you are giving alot to your opponent with this kind of movement.

Out of curiousity Victor, where is any form of Taiji similar to this? I don't have alot of exposure, but my father studied Chen for some time and I feel I can say with some confidence that this kind of movement is almost diametrically opposed to the Chen stuff I saw from him...in fact there was no discernible swingy-hippy thing at all, just a connected body moving as a unit that hit like a ton of bricks.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (08/15/08 11:35 PM)

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#404904 - 08/15/08 11:30 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
student_of_life Offline
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"Now you're addressing the centrral conundrum of video. Was the performance the 'teaching version' or the 'advanced version', for I agree in such training the goal at higher levels is to internalize those movements."

what ever the purpose was, it's good techniue that i see. and your absoultly right about the timing part, i've seen well timed "slow" kicks knock people all over the place before they can throw a fast punch.

my personal opinion of this kind of training has a place as a kind of skill and atribute building exercise. if someone wants to spend time on it and emphasize it, i don't see it making them a machine of hand to hand combat any time soon.

damn conundrums...
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#404905 - 08/16/08 06:04 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Victor Smith Offline
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Hi Zach,

The only tai chi I will comment on is my own yang practice. We do use the rotation of the hip with everything, but in a different time frame than the compression shown in Aragaki Sochin,

Yang covers a lot of different speeds of execution and at full speed my rollback/press is very similar to his movement ability, imo, a very small and very fast execution.

I do not believe this demonstration of koshi is the only answer, but I can't deny it works either. It is a very long term study, IMO. In my tai chi practice I didn't begin to get it till almost 20 years of practice had passed.

Many do not wish to accept what long term practice can yield, which is fine, but not accepting it does't mean it's not there either.

It's a complex MA world after all.
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#404906 - 08/16/08 08:45 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Hi Victor

The level of hip control shown by the practitioner is indeed high. Many karateka cannot do this. The movement however is central to my karate, so I've had many years of getting used to it.

My objection isn't to the hip use per se, but the overuse for each technique. It is, in my view, contextually wrong.

Yuchuku Higa was renknowned for his powerful hip use and all his "descendants" carry this. I can't help but feel it is an over-emphasis.

I have practised Yang style taijiquan for years. I now study Chen Pan-Ling which is a fusion of Chen, Yang, the 2 Wu styles and Hao - with some xingyi and bagua thrown in.

I also study the xingyi and bagua of Chen Pan-Ling.

My sister and brother-in-law are long time Chen practitioners. My brother-in-law is also a Wu practitioner.

Now it is true that internal arts use the hip. But nowhere in any style of taiji that I am familiar with is the hip used in the same context as this sochin kata. The hip is loaded - but generally in, or just before, a parry. The hip then closes and the technique is delivered. There is no "dead" or "disconnected" time. And there is no shaking. The body moves as a seamless whole.

Now I might not understand the reason for this emphasis, but nothing in my experience makes this understandable from an internal perspective. It is a very external method, if anything imho.
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#404907 - 08/16/08 10:12 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
student_of_life Offline
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"It is a very external method, if anything imho."

what do you mean by external method? at this stage or level or training the movement is large and visible, but this kind of training is a requirement to make it smaller and more "internal", if you want to call it that. the goal of alot of traditional karate people is to start with big motions and refine them into samll, with next to no movement, just impact power.

i'll never understand the whole external and internal thing.... i guess i'll just go hit my heavybag, lol
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#404908 - 08/16/08 10:33 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin" [Re: student_of_life]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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I'm a karate man, so I'm not being critical of external arts. I'm making the observation that this hip use is not "internal" in terms of categorisation.

Karate is an external art in terms of its biodynamics. It is very different from the 3 principal internal arts of taiji, bagua and xingyi.

Where external arts rely on getting power first and refining technique to maximum economy later (ie. to a point where you are completely relaxed during movement and only tense the necessary muscles at the necessary times), the internal arts start the other way around. They go for relaxed, seamless movement and maximum economy, then add power.

In the end, you should get to the same thing. However the tools for building skill manifest very differently. Karate has very "strong" punching; taiji etc. look very soft. Both can be just as fast.

You can use some of the internal methods of movement and incorporate them into karate. However this example of sochin would not be one. The movement is powerful - but it is not "economical" in terms of energy use. It might still be highly effective - but it is not "internal" in the sense of classification/categorisation.

See http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/05/internal-vs-external-martial-arts.html.
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#404909 - 08/16/08 11:09 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin" [Re: dandjurdjevic]
student_of_life Offline
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i don't want to derail victors thread, but i'd like to talk with you about this some more, so i'll pm you.
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#404910 - 08/16/08 01:41 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin" [Re: student_of_life]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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I'll add another thing to the mix: blocks/deflections/whatever don't work correctly unless you use your hands first, using your body to move your hand against a commited attack is
bad.

I know this flies in the face of what alot of Karate teaches, but after being shown a different way of doing things, I really think that the typical "body moves then hands" thing you see in alot of kata is training a bad habit, and particularly with a defensive movement not moving your hands first is a bad idea.

Quote:



In the end, you should get to the same thing. However the tools for building skill manifest very differently. Karate has very "strong" punching; taiji etc. look very soft. Both can be just as fast.




Exactly...however I personally take issue with the mechanics in the video, and i'm not convinced that they will somehow become more efficient over time, since from my point of view they start out by building bad habits.

I don't mean to be insulting to anyone who trains this way, this is similar to the way I learned to do things in my Shorin training years ago, since studying with the people I am now my opinions have changed alot on this stuff and it just doesn't sit right with me anymore.

Why not just learn good mechanics right off the bat?

You would never use chudan-uke as an example the way he does in the kata against an attack (I hope), so why practice it that way in kata?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (08/16/08 01:48 PM)

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#404911 - 08/16/08 02:07 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin" [Re: Zach_Zinn]
student_of_life Offline
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"Why not just learn good mechanics right off the bat?"

sounds reasonable, lol. im always trying to think up why karate works the way it dose, and why shouldn't i just go learn boxing and other stuff. the best i can come up with is this: think of preforming kata in this way as a kind of "suplement exercise", it in no way replaces other forms of combat training. its just there to let the student get a feel for how he can generate power from the ground up while not having to rely on making a big ass swing of his arm to get power. you'd obvisouly have to follow it up with bag and mit work and sparing and aliveness. its just one tiny aspect of training, that some people have taken a liking too and like to emphasize. the kind of thing that if i had to spend more then 10 minuites on at a time i would get tired of and go join a boxing gym if i had to do it, lol.


"I'll add another thing to the mix: blocks/deflections/whatever don't work correctly unless you use your hands first, using your body to move your hand against a commited attack is bad."

ok, yeah your right, but try thinking about this. your hands won't move fast unless your core is transfering the strength from your legs properly. also, when your hands reach your opponents limbs you better have a solid core to support your arms, otherwise your arms will be knocked out of the way and you'll get hit. you do it anyway, the video is just building on it.

and like victor said, timing of the movement is more important than the physical speed.
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#404912 - 08/16/08 02:29 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin" [Re: student_of_life]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:


ok, yeah your right, but try thinking about this. your hands won't move fast unless your core is transfering the strength from your legs properly. also, when your hands reach your opponents limbs you better have a solid core to support your arms, otherwise your arms will be knocked out of the way and you'll get hit. you do it anyway, the video is just building on it.

and like victor said, timing of the movement is more important than the physical speed.





If you are using the right mechanics the "core strength" thing is there for everything, you don't need to make your hands move secondarily for it. Moving your hands first is always faster than not imo. So it's not "speed" per se i'm talking about, it's not about fast twitch movement, it's about what the opponent can see, and how long it takes you to perform actions. I'm only harping on it because in some circles this kind of movement is taken as gospel, and i'm thoroughly convinced now that it ingraines bad habits, because I am personally still unlearning them

Just have someone volley a few punches at you semi to full speed, try to deflect them with chudan-uke or whatever, first try it like this with the hip twisty thing, then try it just with your hand first and no hip swingy thing.

I can predict which one will work better for you.

Same thing with punching someone, if you try it with this movement, you have a giant tell that shakes half your body everytime you punch. I really think kata practice should reflect usage, and i'm assuming that on some level this doesn't, that's why i'm not confortable with it.

Even outside of a "live" setting you could take application bits or yakusoku kumites and try them with these mechanics, my guess is the results wouldn't be good if your partner was actually trying to penetrate you defenses.

It would be interesting if we had someone on here who uses theis method to comment on it....anyone out there?

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#404913 - 08/16/08 05:54 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin" [Re: Zach_Zinn]
shoshinkan Offline
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whilst I appriciate the dedication and skill required to perform a kata at this level I personally see little 'function' in it.

Granted alot of kata with exagerated (often by highly skillfull sensei) power generation methods are to demonstrate the principles that the sensei wishes to emphasise (as a teching aid), not for me mind as it is clearly form led over function.

But then again im not very deep...................
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#404914 - 08/16/08 10:21 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin" [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
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Shorin teaches eyes hands feet hands. This helps you get into position. Each technique has combinations such as a deflection and a strike or two strikes. You must look at the preceding technique to fully understand the following technique in several cases. A hand left out before a punch can be a deflection and give you time to obtain superior posotion to launch your strike.
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#404915 - 08/18/08 08:42 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
Barad Offline
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Victor,

Am I right to assume this Sochin has no connection to Shotokan Sochin? (unless Funakoshi Junior really did a remodelling job on this kata!)

B.

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#404916 - 08/18/08 06:25 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Barad]
Victor Smith Offline
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B,

It's obvious the Aragaki no Sochin is closely related to the Shito Ryu Sochin kata (which Mabuni documented in 1938).

Shotokan's form with the same name is something different, regardless of the source.
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#404917 - 08/19/08 04:46 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
Barad Offline
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Posts: 427
Thanks Victor, I was looking at the Aragaki Sochin form and struggling to see anything from Shotokan Sochin in it.

Ben

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#404918 - 08/20/08 09:46 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
Shonuff Offline
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Taken from an interview with a shaking crane master, full interview here: http://www.southerncranekungfu.com/content/?page_id=31

Quote:

Chen: In your opinion, what are the fundamental features of Shaking White Crane?

Master YouXiang Lin: Firstly, I would like to mention its Jin (劲) or the internal martial energy. Shaking White Crane is also known as ZongHe in Fuzhou dialect. “Zong” means “to shake off”. In order to shake off your opponent, you need force.
The Jin in Shaking White Crane is a stream of powerful spring-like internal energy enabling you to shake off your opponent in the close range fight. When touched by this Shaking White Crane Jin, your opponent will have a feeling of being shocked by the lightening. Secondly, as a defensive southern style, White Crane highlights the defending techniques. Tradition has it that the white crane is an agile animal. If you splash a tub of water towards a crane, the crane will use its wings to flap off the water. No water will spatter and then wet the crane, not even a single drop. From this, people have drawn inspiration from the crane and have designed numerous fighting techniques through mimicking the movements of a crane. A White Crane practitioner should, like a real crane, leave no opportunity to the coming attack and avoid getting hurt.




There is some good video on this site as well.
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#404919 - 08/21/08 09:25 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Thanks Shonuff.

I have some understanding of this "shaking" principle. However my view is that all too often it is manifested by excess shaking of the body, when what is being imparted is a hydrostatic shock as I have discussed in this article: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/visible-power-vs-real-power.html and illustrated in the video embedded in that article.

"Lightning" is an apt, if grandiose, description of how this type of strike should feel (with a full power blow, of course) because the hydrostatic shock is transmitted to the nervous system. This may sound far-fetched to those who haven't been at the receiving end, but imagine a "winded feeling" from a blow on your chest - not on your solar plexus (which is how I've experienced it in sparring with my teacher).

But again, I think that the "shaking" feeling you might produce in your opponent is often being unnecessarily produced or replicated in the striker's body...

Hydrostatic shock techniques are indeed "internal", but the "external" shaking of the body is not.
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#404920 - 08/21/08 10:01 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

ydrostatic shock techniques are indeed "internal", but the "external" shaking of the body is not.





Word.

I wanted to ask though...Ed or someone posted this recently:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRqfYwhsQdQ

I'm wondering if there's a connection as the thread I saw earlier referenced the "double hip" in Shukokai, and I remember Shukokai kata looking about like the kata at the start of the thread. To be honest I don't still don't see how or why doing that with your hips would be neccessary for the power being shown in the Peter Consterdine video, but I'd figured it'd make for interesting conversation.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (08/21/08 10:18 PM)

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#404921 - 08/22/08 01:42 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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The double hip is just loading your hip (ie. not just taking it from where it is). In other words, Consterdine is doing the same thing as in the sochin kata video. This is good power generation, but you won't get that opportunity to pre-load in every instance.

You should practise a good hip load for power striking bags, pads, shields (or telephone books). But in kata? In the context of blocks?

Consterdine does it quite fast - but the millisecond it takes to do might be a millisecond too fast in a flowing, dynamic environment. Preloading your hip with every strike in a kata is not necessary.

Most karateka should be able (or should practise) using their hips. Confusing the static, ideal, environment for combat is another thing. So while I like what Consterdine is doing (and he has excellent hip use/power transfer), I don't think this is a template for kata practice.
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#404922 - 08/22/08 04:45 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:


You should practise a good hip load for power striking bags, pads, shields (or telephone books). But in kata? In the context of blocks?





I know guys that can hit like this while standing one leg, and having none of the "typical" Karate hip swing at all, in fact we don't do the swingy hips at all anymore, and I don't miss it.

I'm sure if you've been exposed to some IMA people you've seen the kind of thing i'm talking about, that is my issue with this kind of movement, since I've met guys who hit like mac trucks using a totally different method than "body first then hands" shown in the kata vid, I don't see the benefit in it. I still think it encourages a big tell also.

I know the hip torque thing is endlessly debated, but personally i've dropped it.

I don't know if consterdine's movements look the same as the kata to me...


Out of curiousity, in your experience are there any CMA that use that kind of movement, or is it something that's unique to certain Karate schools?

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#404923 - 08/22/08 09:09 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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That "double hip" does not occur in IMA, although I've seen something like it in certain crane schools.
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#404924 - 08/24/08 03:37 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Victor Smith Offline
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Yoshimasa Matsuda Shorin Ryu Karate Do http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tn9EpYc5pc
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#404925 - 08/25/08 01:50 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Ed_Morris Offline
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one thing people might misunderstand - the double hip is firstly a training method not an end goal. the idea is, start with exagurated movement to get the principle and structure/timing and feeling of the impact, then the student (if guided) works to get the movement 'smaller' as they get more efficient without comprimising the delivery.

instead, what we typically see is the exaggurated movement being taught as the end goal. same with the Matsubayashi whip: many (it seems) are taught towards getting the exaggurated movement and then not guided/progressed beyond that. Thats because more than not, people start teaching prematurely.


The goal is as little setup as possible without loosing the power of the technique. loading a hip takes too long for close distance and is a telegraph at longer distance.

not only does it seem similar to crane power delivery, but the only difference I can tell, is in the training method. The end results are towards the same: maximum power transfer thru minimal movement.

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#404926 - 08/25/08 02:52 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Ed_Morris]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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I agree that the "double hip" is a training method. I can see its use against shields and bags and in other "static" environments.

However kata is, to me, a tool for grooving combinations in a dynamic setting. I think it is very unlikely that you'll ever do a "double hip" in combat. Rather your hip should be set up by a previous parry etc. - and you'll go from whatever position your hip happens to be in (rather than some ideal "power" position).

In this respect your hip use is no different from any other "loading" - eg. loading arms for punches and strikes, or legs for kicks. You should learn to move so that you end up in the right (or at least an appropriate) position. You wouldn't artificially load your hip, no more than you would interrupt a flow of movement to load your punch into a chamber. Instead, just as chambers on one arm should take place while the other is in action, so your hip should load during the preceding movement.

Accordingly this "double hip" strikes me as a "wobble" that is akin to being "wrong-footed" in sparring - it cuts against your flow of movement in an attempt to create an "ideal" power load.

Simultaneously it assumes your hip is not already sufficiently loaded for the required technique. Karate is a civilian defence system; ie. it has the central aim of "not getting hit". It is not a sport where you're looking to "win" - perhaps by scoring a "knockout punch". A civilian defence system doesn't try to maximise its power on every single technique. It focuses on safety first.

In the case of sochin kata, the punches from neko ashi dachi are akin to the opening punches in goju's seisan - they are "snap-like" punches - not full hip "power" blows. Any attempt to force them into the "power" mould misconceives their function and robs the student of practising very useful, situation-appropriate self-defence skills (ie. kizami zuki). The fact that neko ashi dachi is not usually seen as a platform for the delivery of power punches (except where it is used to lunge into zenkutsu dachi) is, I feel, supportive of, and consistent with, my argument.

So rather than being a development of karate, I see this version of sochin as tangential at best.
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#404927 - 08/25/08 01:11 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
shoshinkan Offline
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one of the core uses (as i understand it) of the double hip was to enable a really strong reverse punch to be fired from the karate stance and with one hand forward and one hand towards the hip, often with the front hand dealing with something incoming or diverting etc etc. (mainly a sport application).

it's a good method for that, I agree it is often exagerated and not progressed as I think it should be,

however many people now use it as it is a simple and effective way to generate alot of power, and indeed for many techniques.

Im not as keen as I used to be however, my karate and main reasons for training have changed significantly - no longer is a really powerful reverse punch, well that important.

But rest assured there are many that use this method and can hit like a train. you just might see it coming.......
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#404928 - 08/25/08 02:22 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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in my opinion, hitting hard without winding up or telegraphing, is key. it doesn't matter which technique you use to train that - the principle carries to all other strikes.

unless of course you guys aren't concerned with being able to hit hard or not, and just concentrate on eye rakes, pressure points and groin pulls.

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#404929 - 08/25/08 03:55 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Ed_Morris]
student_of_life Offline
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ed, some of us train shotokan, punching and kicking is all i know how to do, lol.
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#404930 - 08/25/08 04:08 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Ed_Morris]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

in my opinion, hitting hard without winding up or telegraphing, is key. it doesn't matter which technique you use to train that - the principle carries to all other strikes.




I agree, it should be a fundamental skill applying to everything you do, which is why I don't get why someone would train kata with big loopy movements like those in Victors first video, especially since you don't need them to generate power.

I guess in the end since it's not how I've trained I just don't get it. I'm sure there is much more to it than what i'm seeing.

Quote:


unless of course you guys aren't concerned with being able to hit hard or not, and just concentrate on eye rakes, pressure points and groin pulls.





Why even bother with those, no touch knockouts are where it's at....no effort to defeat someone, what can beat that


Edited by Zach_Zinn (08/25/08 04:13 PM)

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#404931 - 08/25/08 05:14 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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hitting hard is of course an important element in what we do Ed,

it just isn't given perhaps the significance alot of other karate ryu give it.

There are equally important topics like not getting hit to much and hitting several times for the desired effect.

But you knew that

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#404932 - 08/25/08 06:37 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Zach_Zinn]
BrianS Offline
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The next time you KO me via pm Zach!!!!!!!!



1. Learn how to hit freakin hard.
2. Learn not to get hit.
3. Learn not to waste your time with silly "old" kata with dorky moves in place of real training.
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#404933 - 08/25/08 07:01 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: BrianS]
shoshinkan Offline
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and perhaps we should all learn not to de-rail threads in the kata section..............
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#404934 - 08/25/08 07:31 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Ed_Morris]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

in my opinion, hitting hard without winding up or telegraphing, is key. it doesn't matter which technique you use to train that - the principle carries to all other strikes.




I suppose this is my point. The "loading" used in this method - while reasonably quick - is an interruption to flow of movement that constitutes telegraphing or winding up. Not good for combat imo. I've never seen anyone apply such a double hip in sparring, competition or (for that matter) in a street confrontation.

Quote:

unless of course you guys aren't concerned with being able to hit hard or not, and just concentrate on eye rakes, pressure points and groin pulls.





You forgot internet kyusho/kiaijutsu (via forum or pm).
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#404935 - 08/25/08 08:34 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Victor Smith Offline
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Dan, solely logically, it's a very big mistake to assume anything about a system that you haven't invested deep trianing into.

From friends who have studied similar approaches, no question it takes a tremendous effort to get those studies right. No doubt systems that don't use it are easier to acquire skill, but that doesn't mean those who follow that course can't do so either.

From a tactical point of view karate has never been about combat or fighting, but to destroy an attacker so there is no combat or fighting. The strategy and tactics required to use these techniques readily exist, but are in a different dimension than I would assume you're using (or I for that manner).

Now any video tape really doesn't show much or what a system of study really is.

The Aragaki No Sochin, while skilled, is still a senior doing a walk through, IMO. Very similarily would be Shimabuku Tatsuo's walk through in SunNuSu kata from 1966. The stance is a little different of course, and the 'snapping' aspect of the punch a little different too, but your comments about it's use are not exactly correct.

The light snapping punch of Isshinryu, performed that way but trained very differently is my primary tool of choice to drop Goju karate-ka (and many other styles). Of course, perhaps I hit a little harder than what is shown. And there are no rules about application. For example I see the opening row of techniques for Aragaki No Sochin and/or Isshinryu SunNuSu (or Seisan for that manner) as having dozens of different answers of use, nad pratice and teach all of them.

Having found out the hard way many years ago I try hard never to assume and work out the tactical choices they may be using.

Well each will believe as they will. I an older and much slower individual work hard to get it done after all.

pleasantly,


Edited by Victor Smith (08/25/08 08:36 PM)
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#404936 - 08/25/08 09:29 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Victor Smith]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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I see your point Victor.

If I am assuming anything, it is that the Aragaki sochin hip use is the same as our hip use (and hence that I have invested sufficient time to comment). It certainly looks like our hip use. I have trained to do what the gentleman on the video is doing (if I am interpreting his moves correctly). We isolate our hips a lot in practice - both horizontal plane of movement and 45 degree angle plane movement.

However I don't believe in employing static hip loading in the dynamic context that is kata (at least not on every technique). The closest I would come to this sochin would be the video you posted of Tomari rohai - where you will note the hip loading (particularly on the second and third thrusts) occurs during (and as part of) the step up; it does not occur in a stationary posture. And it is not used in the subsequent techniques since the same "contextual opportunity" for hip loading does not arise.

It is true that techniques have dozens of different uses. Perhaps my concern is that the Aragaki sochin emphasis on hip loading is detracting from some of those uses (where the "more contextual" use of hips in Tomari rohai doesn't appear to have the same level of "dissociation" from a dynamic context)...

As I said at the outset, I admire the sochin kata practitioner's ability, however I am not convinced that it is a technically optimal method of kata practise.

However I might be wrong in my assumptions about what it is the Aragaki sochin moves are all about and I shall accept your advice not to assume too much.
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#404937 - 08/26/08 10:36 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Ed_Morris]
Barad Offline
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Posts: 427
Ed,

Hitting hard is surely key but the other things you mention are also useful and sometimes integral and not mutually exclusive alternatives. The eye rake may set up or distract to allow the hard, accurate punch or for that matter the groin grab... Hitting hard is a vital skill. Hitting hard somewhere particularly vulnerable is even better IMO.

Ben

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#404938 - 08/26/08 01:37 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: shoshinkan]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

and perhaps we should all learn not to de-rail threads in the kata section..............




Just ignore them then ya weiner.
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#404939 - 08/26/08 01:40 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Barad]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Quote:

Ed,

Hitting hard is surely key but the other things you mention are also useful and sometimes integral and not mutually exclusive alternatives. The eye rake may set up or distract to allow the hard, accurate punch or for that matter the groin grab... Hitting hard is a vital skill. Hitting hard somewhere particularly vulnerable is even better IMO.

Ben




Hard and accurate, indeed!

I suppose a devastating blow through the earlobe wouldn't do much,lol.
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#404940 - 08/27/08 05:00 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: BrianS]
Barad Offline
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Posts: 427
Brian,

I am missing your point on the earlobe I think.

To elaborate on what I saying before: IMO hitting a live, moving target hard and accurately can be very difficult. The eye rake can, for me at least, be the set up, the distraction, the inducer of a stopping mind or whatever you want to call it that allows the hard strike to be deployed accurately. Hence the techniques Ed was talking about work usefully together, not as alternatives.

Ben

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#404941 - 08/27/08 09:52 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Barad]
BrianS Offline
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I simply meant that it is ineffective to hit a target hard if it isn't a good target.
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#404942 - 08/27/08 10:40 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: BrianS]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Brian,

Thanks-I agree obviously.

Ben

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#404943 - 08/31/08 01:21 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Barad]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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#404944 - 08/31/08 06:32 PM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
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Loc: Olympia, WA
Nice article Dan, I find myself in agreement.

Also Macyoung's thingy on power generation is imho, light years ahead of alot of the stuff written on the subject, and shares alot in common with the kind of things i've learned training with Kris Wilder, I prefer his model to the swingy hip thing in general.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (08/31/08 06:36 PM)

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#404945 - 09/10/08 11:06 AM Re: Aragaki no Sochin [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Bump.

In my view sanchin dachi of goju is an excellent example of how you don't need to artificially "load" the hip: the sanchin already lets you do this as part of stepping into the stance.

Consider my addendum and the video embedded in it, showing the sanchin hip use both to add momentum to a technique (at the end of the video) and as a weapon in itself (at the beginning of the video, shown as a clinch technique):

http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/09/whole-lotta-shakin-addendum.html
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