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#404588 - 10/01/08 04:48 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
you talk alot of reasonable stuff med, can't argue that. so please, explain this....

"but to randomly stick in techniques and steps into a kata just seems odd."

but in your last post you said this...
"Or imagine that my opponent is now attacking from the front so I need to turn 85 degrees rather than 180 degrees and add a few punches and a kick before the original low block. "

now, i know in your world you have a reason for this. like for example the techniques you used in the example were "called for" under your imaginary circumstances. but which side of what fence are you on, i'll never know, haha.

"And I will keep doing my demonstration karate."

" Its one thing to shadow box with karate techniques, but to choses a kata and then do something other than that kata is weird."

keep on being weird my friend, its working for you.
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#404589 - 10/01/08 05:09 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Student, you misunderstood. When I said "Or imagine that my opponent is now attacking from the front so I need to turn 85 degrees rather than 180 degrees and add a few punches and a kick before the original low block." I was imagining how strange and random the stuff Ed, Zach, et al were saying was. This is not what I do. It is what I imagined that they do. Get it?
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#404590 - 10/01/08 05:34 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

So Zach can we assume that you do kata differently everytime you practice it as well? Its one thing to shadow box with karate techniques, but to choses a kata and then do something other than that kata is weird. Now, I can understand unfolding the "hidden" techniques within a kata since this is a part of advanced training in shorin ryu, but to randomly stick in techniques and steps into a kata just seems odd. But if it floats your boat and makes you a better fighter go for it. And I will keep doing my demonstration karate.




No, but practicing variation in kata is pretty basic stuff, if practicing kata to you just means rote practice of the same srquences over and over, id say that's a pretty limited view, further i'd say it's practice more based on aesthetics than on training skills.

Has nothing to do with randomly sticking techniques, has to do with actually training the kata rather than just "performing" it.

Again, it amazes me that this concept is controversial to anyone.

No one said anything about random BTW, read what we write before editorializing about something that's not even there.
So you imagine we do some "random strange stuff".....right back at ya I guess dude.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (10/01/08 05:39 PM)

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#404591 - 10/01/08 05:49 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I guess you have never read some of what I have written on training kata versus performing kata. After the basic level you are right simply going through an entire kata the same way over and over makes no sense. However, I don't train that way. For me it is about training individual techniques or technique strings and developing them or training the entire kata at combat speed to develop footwork and combat effective speed or posibly taking out the repeating techniques to get at a deeper meaning to the kata. What I find strange is to perform an entire kata and changing things here and there all along.

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#404592 - 10/01/08 05:51 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Okay Zach. If when you perform an entire kata and step here instead of there and kick instead of punch if its not random then explain the systematic way you determine when and where to do what.
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#404593 - 10/01/08 06:09 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: medulanet]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

CVV, other than training a kata at combat speed or taking out steps/techniques to better understand bunkai, why alter the steps in solo kata training when you could spend that time working with a training partner?




Because we are training the solo practice.
When I do partnjer drill, it's either bunkai kumite, explaining a movement from kata or yakusoku kumite taking a combination derived from kata/fighting experience.

Adding on steps, executing a combination of techniques from a step multiple times, more as foreseen in the kata, is a way to, train these individual steps. It does not to create a new enbusen that I like more, just training.

I take 2 examples.
Sanchin training, just repeat sequence till you at the end of the dojo floor and then turn, repeating this sequence agin till end of dojo then turn, repeat sequence.
This is the way Kanryu Higashiaonna trained this kata (around 1885 - 1915). Purpose Iron body traing and basic stepping-striking technique.

Shishochin kata. Their is weird combination of techniques in it to dislocate elbow/submission technique on elbow. It's executed in both directions north/south twice in the kata (right and left side). In training I just could do more of these same steps to train this technique solo.

You could argue that you could just break up these sequences and train them in a kihon practice but setting up combinations in kihon technique is not something that is emphesized in kihon practice in the goju-ryu sects I have trained with. They rather train this from kata practice.

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#404594 - 10/01/08 06:53 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: CVV]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
CVV, but now are we talking about practicing a kata or isolating technique combinations and training them? Remeber, this discussion was regarding performing a kata and ending on the same spot. Many here argued that this did not happen because their kata practice had advanced to a level that they added steps, changed the angles, and added techniques. I don't see taking a set of techniques from a kata and training them up and down the deck as the same. No one ever talked about training specific kata sequences seperately. It was about creating an on the spot kata variation and unable to end on the same spot due to this variation on the kata. Now, if all of the detractors are now talking about taking individual techniques or technique strings and training them in isolation of a particular kata that I agree with. Wait a minute, I think I mentioned that earlier as a kata training method I prescribe to. So if this is what you are talking about I have no beef with you.
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#404595 - 10/01/08 07:58 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Okay Zach. If when you perform an entire kata and step here instead of there and kick instead of punch if its not random then explain the systematic way you determine when and where to do what.




Well ya know how a technique can have alot of different uses, and even within a single use, you perform it differently depending on the sitaution...same thing there.

I'm not saying I do the "offical kata" differently everytime...i'm saying that pulling apart the kata and training it with some intent and understanding is much more important than where you start and end, and whether all you zenkutsu stances are the same length.

I really don't think kata were meant ot have such an exact performance, I feel this is mostly modern contrivance and probably largely due to Japanese budo influence...there's definitely right and wrong ways of doing stuff, but treating kata like a formal exact dance is silly imo.

To touch on the original subject, as far as arts using solo kata I think it is a small minority that pay alot of attention to this kind of detail, and I can say from experience most Goju don't end on exactly the same spot, nor do they need to.

Personally when in doubt I try to err on the side of substance over ceremony, and i'm just not convinced that where you start and end is a consideration of any great substance or depth.

Obviously you don't add or subtract things from the offical version of the kata, however being able to adaptively use it, pull it apart and understand it is kind of a big deal, so beyond the "offical version" I don't see a point in NOT playing with it, whether solo or paired.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (10/01/08 08:08 PM)

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#404596 - 10/01/08 08:31 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Okay, so you are saying that rather than pulling individual techniques or techniques strings to "play" with you perform the entire kata with differences to match your application.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#404597 - 10/01/08 08:42 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
referring to earlier, I wasn't talking about gross changes to the kata - I meant using the same principled mechanics of the technique/sequence but allowing for variance of that principle instead of strickly mimicing an orthodox form.

you don't strickly adhere to the orthodox form when doing partner drills of any given principle, so why have that restriction during the solo set? ...was my point.


my other point about 'sloppy' is what the above mentioned allowance looks like to an orthodox-minded observer. They see that the person isn't adhering 100% to to the orthodox form and sees that as 'slop'....while the experienced viewer on the other hand, can see solidly applied application more clearly.

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