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#404578 - 10/01/08 02:43 AM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: medulanet]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
In regard to demonstration kata versus trainig kata, I agree with Ed. Concerning Goju I have been thaught that you can alter the number of steps in training. Of course the demo version is the one that is to be used in public demonstration and end-up roughly same space.

Another thing not always persued in Goju is to train both sides. But you can add-on steps in training kata just to compensate. The right side is emphesized in Goju. Neither do we visualize opponents in performing solo kata, but stress on maximum power release through timing, speed and technique. Nowadays also focus on posture towards principles in up-right position (look nice, always same posture in technique, competition), although in older interpreteation towards combat posture.

But these are my experiences in Goju-ryu, I cannot talk about Tomari-te or Shuri-te.

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#404579 - 10/01/08 05:36 AM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Ed,

I'm not buying your 'reductio ab absurdum' argument (and I'm no taking the time to check the latin spelling ((real men don't use spell check anyways)).

That said a kata rising block can legitmately be a spinning back fist using 'kakushite' or hidden hand instruction. But I think the rules on that are if I show it I have to destroy you, or it wouldn't remain hidden.....

As I said I'm not a it matters if you stop at the starting point type of guy, I just can see a use it it at different stages of training, depending on what the instructor is trying to develop.

I find the range of potential in the arts vast, and doubt anyone comes close to using all of the potential. It is very possible that there are things we don't agree with that can still be used positively in a program.

At the same time, there are things that can end up being done for rote and lose value too.

In this case it's not the existence of the training method, its the choice how it is used. I"ve not had occassion to make that choice yet. Of course on our next encounter I will go out of my way to 'force' it on you <GRIN>.

Yes I did judge for about 10 years and no stopping at a special point was not one of the judging criteria. I judge in open competition tournaments, not closed style ones. TKD, Goju and Shorin side by side.

While there are many reasons, among them when I came to realize 95% of the competitors would be better served to not compete but spend that time training, was at the time I set tournaments aside.

Today I only use one set of criteria if I would judge. Using my study of technique alignment, if I would see a black belt competitor who was unaligned in any technique (creating an opening I could attack) I would score them 0, otherwise if there was no misalignment I would score them 100. My reasoning if I see a black belt make a mistake I could attack they didn't surive the fight.

BTW, for my own students (black belt) if they made a mistake I would do the same. I have one student I judged a 0 who took first place in the division, once upon a time.

But I don't judge these days....


Edited by Victor Smith (10/01/08 05:38 AM)
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#404580 - 10/01/08 07:46 AM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
not selling it Victor, so no need to buy it.

I suppose, some liken kata to cloud interpretation - anything can be anything.

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#404581 - 10/01/08 01:11 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: CVV]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
CVV, other than training a kata at combat speed or taking out steps/techniques to better understand bunkai, why alter the steps in solo kata training when you could spend that time working with a training partner?
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#404582 - 10/01/08 02:03 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
if you are willing to argue that, then it sortof puts into question the need for the solo kata at all - since you could be instead spending THAT time with partner drills/sparring.

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#404583 - 10/01/08 02:36 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

if you are willing to argue that, then it sortof puts into question the need for the solo kata at all - since you could be instead spending THAT time with partner drills/sparring.




Not really Ed. Kata is important to develop proper technique and ingrain the lessons of karate's fighting strategy. Too much sparring can ingrain bad habits such as too much stepping back to avoid rather than setting up your opponent and gaining superior position to counter through tai sabaki. All partner drills with no kata or basics training and cause technique execution to erode. There are many pieces to the karate puzzle. Kata is your text book, pad/makiwara work is your scratch paper/notes, conditioning is your homework, and two man drills/sparring is your lab. Unless you are a prodigy or genius all are needed for a complete martial education.
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#404584 - 10/01/08 02:53 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thanks, but I'm not exactly new to Karate.

you would rather spend the time doing extra partner work than doing a semi-adhoc solo kata - fine. but you won't comprimise the time you spend doing the dogmatic solo kata practice?

doesn't make sense - you are willing to practice semi-adhoc partner drills (it has to be at least somewhat adhoc, assuming your partner isn't attacking/resisting exactly the same way each time), but you aren't willing to carry that over into solo work - instead, for the solo work, you do the exact angles and precision stepping form and practice landing in the same place.

it shouldn't be a stretch to imagine some places however, allow for the subtlties learned from partner work, to carry into the solo form.

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#404585 - 10/01/08 03:26 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
That's just it, everything learned from the two man drills, pad work, sparring, etc. is carried over into kata training. Except I don't see the need to do three chest blocks rather than two as a method of improving my fighting. Or imagine that my opponent is now attacking from the front so I need to turn 85 degrees rather than 180 degrees and add a few punches and a kick before the original low block. But if you can benefit from that training be my guest. I'd rather get my stuff perfect like lightening and then go see how it works against someone trying to take my head off.

As for practicing landing in the same spot I don't. That's just it. I explained why it is done. But a lot of emphasis rally should not be placed on it. Its good for beginners and it us a method to get feed back on your kata stance work if you so desire.

Now, let me ask you a question Ed. Do your altered kata improve your fighting more than the prearranged ones?
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#404586 - 10/01/08 03:49 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Ok, i'm gonna go ahead and throw this out there:

In arts other than Karate what Ed is talking about is not only accepted, but to some degree expected, even in solo work there is room for expansion upon what you are doing, particularly as one gets higher up in understanding.

Why this would be a controversial idea I really can't grasp.

The idea of "kata is only this way" in terms of practice is great for beginners but I really think it lacks usefulness later on. You should understand what you are doing and why, but you should also understand that it's always about context and there are almost infinite variations.

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#404587 - 10/01/08 04:00 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
So Zach can we assume that you do kata differently everytime you practice it as well? Its one thing to shadow box with karate techniques, but to choses a kata and then do something other than that kata is weird. Now, I can understand unfolding the "hidden" techniques within a kata since this is a part of advanced training in shorin ryu, but to randomly stick in techniques and steps into a kata just seems odd. But if it floats your boat and makes you a better fighter go for it. And I will keep doing my demonstration karate.
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